Shadows can be very dangerous...

[The_Fixer]

Just that the damage done by a real giant striking you with a club will probably be similar to the damage done by his shadow. It seems that both shoud strike about as fast, and the club's hardess will do little difference: If I strike you with a bronze club, a metal club or an adamantium club, save for eventual weight differences (taking only into account the material's hardness), you'll feel no difference. Squash.

There, there'll be differences, but I think that overall, they even out: Maybe the shadow will be more swift but strike with less raw strength, or the real club'll have a momentum the shadow won't have (since it essentially has no weight, just hardness)... You get the idea.

IMO, once the material is hard enough to not break upon striking the target, it becomes irrelevant. We must only consider mass, speed, and eventual penetration. The shadow strikes with force, but lacks real mass, so these compensates. If mass grew, speed would decrease. Penetration is the same.

It's seems thus both logical to me and, moreso, mostly balanced, to have a Shadow do damage based on what is generating it.

[DIREWOLF75]

The same logic applies to cold, yes: cold is defined by the absence of heat, and controlling or changing cold can only be achieved by manipulating it's opposite, heat, which is governed by Ignem.

First of all, cold is only absence of heat at 0K/-273C.
2nd, considering cold as the absence of something is a modern concept.
3rd, the Arts have been designed to cover just about everything and since cold and darkness are counted as PeIg, i say that makes them targets for Mu and Re -Ig as well, as otherwise there is a missing art.

A- As explained above, since neither cold nor shadow can be defined as something that is, only as something that is not, they cannot be targeted. The caster cannot be aware of them to target them, for he doesn't know what they are.

If you go by that, i expect you to start having problems targeting steam, mist, lava and potentially hoardes of other things that then becomes questionable.

B- Instead of being the absence of heat and light, cold and shadow are aspects of Ignem on their own rights, and thus affected by it.

This is how i read the spirit and intention of the game design. And its also how the system fits into the background story.

C- As B, except they remain impossible to affect due to yet another failure in Bonisagus' Magic Theory.

Id call this the rubbish option because it uses a questionable fluff cop-out to create a problem...

D- Once a shadow is created it is governed by Imaginem, much as when water is frozen it is governed by Aquam.

Mmm, Terram perhaps you meant? This one however leaves cold out cold so to say... :mrgreen:

---

The 2nd effect, IMO, is Re(mu), or even maybe Re(Mu, Cr): As someone noted, not only are you making the Shadows move under your command, but you're also making them 3-dimensionnal, divorcing them from the medium they're projected upon, which is highly unnatural. This is, in act, 2 things: a a rego effect to move the shadows (could be done on the ground), and a Mu(Cr) effect to make them 3-dimensional (like creating a shadow castle from a shadow)

True indeed. Or what if the shadows stay "apparently" 2D?(ie if you see it from the wrong side you cant see it...)
I dont think Cr is needed for it though, but Muto, very probably.

For imaginem... As far as I understand, species come from the light exciting something, which then project species. So a shadow, darkness, should be the way an object appear when not projecting species? Like, the invisible magus still blocks light (even though his species are destroyed), thus it doesn't lights the ground, which doesn't project species. So I say Imaginem has nothing to do with shadows, although it can create false ones.

Exactly.

[Yan]

@DIREWOLF75

First of all, cold is only absence of heat at 0K/-273C.
2nd, considering cold as the absence of something is a modern concept.
3rd, the Arts have been designed to cover just about everything and since cold and darkness are counted as PeIg, i say that makes them targets for Mu and Re -Ig as well, as otherwise there is a missing art.

I find it strange that you are using a modern concept (0K) to invalidate mine while in the same breath accusing my logic of being anachronistic - which it may well be, but it is nevertheless valid in Canon.
As to your third point, I would ask you to point me to where did you find the statement that the Arts were designed to cover everything, even though it is besides the point - the point being, of course, that while the Arts may affect shadow and cold, they cannot target them, and must thus resort to affecting them indirectly.

Here is another one the Arts cannot target: fatigue. Hermetic Magic can transfer fatigue from one body to another, in a less than ideal manner, but it cannot affect the fatigue itself, and must resort to affecting the bodies (Corpus) instead. Were Hermetic magic able to target fatigue, it would logically be able to PeCo it entirely or ReCo it into, say, body hair.

If you go by that, i expect you to start having problems targeting steam, mist, lava and potentially hoardes of other things that then becomes questionable.

As for that, I'd like to point you out to the insert "The Elemental Forms", ArM p. 79, which basically describes how to target mist, lava, ice (which is different from cold, it is worth noting) and hail. As for steam, it can be clearly placed under the influence of Auram, as "it also governs gaseous forms in general" (ArM p. 78).

This is how i read the spirit and intention of the game design. And its also how the system fits into the background story.

As you will. I have no objections to players making interpretations that best suit their play style and preferences.

Id call this the rubbish option because it uses a questionable fluff cop-out to create a problem...

Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but some troupes may enjoy the possibility of discovering and, possibly, breaking a previously unnoticed Lesser Limit. As I said before, these are just ideas.

Mmm, Terram perhaps you meant? This one however leaves cold out cold so to say... :mrgreen:

You are correct, on both counts - except perhaps in the creation and destruction of ice, which is governed by CrAq and PeAq alone.

[ExarKun]

My 2cents:

Were cold is the lack of heat, shadow is not the lack of light (which is... unseenable)...To have shadows, we must have light. Without light, no species, and shadows is a kind of species. So i would say shadows are imaginem as they are visual faded species or "normal species not enough illuminated"...

I find the focus interesting, but targeting shadow would mean transform "species" in something real.
So i would say: ok but need Mu with at least touch sense affected by the species. And for the complexity of the thing, a +3 or +4 regoterram requisite, because "shadow comes to live".
So the spell for "transform the shadow into a giant" would be some kind of Mu(Re)Im(Te). The baseguidelin would either be Muto 1 (change 1 sense i think) or Rego 4 (or 5) "move dirt in a unnatural way". Then add the +3 or +4 complexity magnitude, and i would say the base is some kind of +-20. That would be ok for a so nice concept.
It would be a good for a focus magus and magus formulaic-ing it, but not a "spontaneaousable one".
As for the damage, i would say: attack roll is finess of the magus (+ bonus from the size of the shadow^^) and damage are +10+5*size of the shadow

Exar, without books so no checks.

[YR7]

@Baudolino

This is not an option in our game, a player has a verditius with a magical focus in darkness as character and I don't want to break his toy saying that he can no longer do his little games with shadows...

In Magi of Hermes there's Ranulf of Flambeau that with his magical focus with unnatural fires can do wonderful (and wierd) things, the player wants to do the same things with the manipulation of darkness and as a group we decided to allow it.

Your game comes first. I'd allow him to target Ig, personally, and to create shadows with PeIg, destroy them with CrIg, and control or change them with ReIg or MuIg; not overly consistent, but it seems most appropriate to me. What you could consider, however, is to keep these effects slightly non-Hermetic - to say that the magus' unique magic allows him to target shadows, while normal Hermetic magi still cannot.

I still would appreciate some guidance; putting aside the shadows, how to manage a giant made of stone created and controlled by a magus who tries to hit an enemy protected by MR? What would be the damage inflicted?

I would allow the spell that creates the creature to have a Penetration that applies. In your case, the lowest of the MuIg(Te) and PeIg effects, since both create the stony creature. Again, probably not strictly RAW.

As for damage inflicted, I'll look up an earth elemental's damage, for an elemental with the same size, and perhaps lower it slightly.

[DIREWOLF75]

I find it strange that you are using a modern concept (0K) to invalidate mine while in the same breath accusing my logic of being anachronistic - which it may well be, but it is nevertheless valid in Canon.

No, perfectly fine if you read it as written. First im responding to the fact that your statement is incorrect by the same standards you apply yourself. THEN i ALSO add that the concept itself is broken for the time in question.
Two different and unrelated objections.

And no i dont consider it "valid in canon", in fact from all i have read i simply cant consider it anything but the opposite.

As to your third point, I would ask you to point me to where did you find the statement that the Arts were designed to cover everything

Based on how some arts are stretched to include things that would otherwise be hard to include in any art, i think its a rather good assumption to make.

that while the Arts may affect shadow and cold, they cannot target them, and must thus resort to affecting them indirectly.

Ah... And exactly HOW do you KNOW that? And since the fact is that you ARE controlling them by controlling them indirectly, even if true, such an inability to target them becomes irrelevant.
You´re still affecting light or heat(by preventing or reducing its presence) anyway. The only exception becomes the absolute zero point in either case. And thats not something i expect to ever be something we need bothering with. Nor of course is it even suitable for the timeline.
Suitable for the timeline however, IS to affect cold and shadows as "targets".

Here is another one the Arts cannot target: fatigue. Hermetic Magic can transfer fatigue from one body to another, in a less than ideal manner, but it cannot affect the fatigue itself, and must resort to affecting the bodies (Corpus) instead.

Except being able to exchange fatigue without anything else means fatigue IS being targeted. Lack of ability to manipulate it is another matter.

Were Hermetic magic able to target fatigue, it would logically be able to PeCo it entirely or ReCo it into, say, body hair.

Eh... hehe... I think you mean CrCo(as you´re improving something) or MuCo(unnatural change!) rather...

As for that, I'd like to point you out to the insert "The Elemental Forms", ArM p. 79, which basically describes how to target mist, lava, ice (which is different from cold, it is worth noting) and hail. As for steam, it can be clearly placed under the influence of Auram, as "it also governs gaseous forms in general" (ArM p. 78).

Oh i know. But IF you were to state restrictions against Cold and Shadow, then these other things would also be affected by such a rule change. Otherwise you would have to state exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions.
Or start making up new reasons for having several new Hermetic Limitations. Limits that will both feel and be very arbitrary and artificial, because in many ways, thats what they would be.

Anyway, the important part is really that "in character", shadows and cold is something that CAN be targeted, and by the definitions of the magic system, they fall under Ignem.

[WolfOfCampscapel]

Species cannot be transformed into a physical form, according to HoH:S, Jerbiton chapter. So MuIm is right out, barring a minor breakthrough.

But whatever fits the game, as always. Just stay consistent within the saga.

[The_Fixer]

Oooooh that's right.

It gets worse.

As mentionned before, shadows are an object's aspect when not "excited" by light (which produces species). Thus, they can be created and affected indirectly by affecting light, but that's all: You can alter light so as to produce shadows, not create shadows under the light, and a focus in Shadows (darkness) is in fact akin to a focus in light, only with PeIg effects instead of CrIg effects (both have ReIg and all, that's just the main difference).

To answer to Exarkun, we CAN have shadows without light. It's just that they're everywhere, and thus undistinguishable from each other. Total darkness is just everything being non-excited by light, thus everything being black.

For "scientific" reasons related to invisibility, it has become my belief that a non-excited object emits species (yes, I'm changing my PoW since my earlier post). Black species, which are shadows. This explain the various states of darkness, as a patch of ground is more or less excited by light, and thus more or less dark. The black color is just something that either can't be excited, or lacks other kind of species generators. Something which lacks species generator (like air) is just invisible.
Thus, shadows can be produced and controlled by both Ignem (by affecting light) or imaginem (by creating black species). But they can't be affected by Muto.

To have this "non-excited" state move and take form is ludicrous, since it's just an object's non-excited appearance: Shadows have no reality "per se". It'd be just like saying that an item's invisibility can take a form and attack you.

Even if we say Shadows are not black species, it gets harder to manipulate, since they become akin to how we consider someone's looks, and it'd be like having someone's skin color take a third dimension and attack things.

Does this means such effects are impossible? No. You just gotta think outside the box.
Have a PeIg spell (or a PeCo spell, or...) designed just as normal, and then have the special effect be "the character's shadow comes to life and strikes him with its icy touch (PeIg) / Inflicts terrible wounds (PeCo)". Just like a CrIg spell can be a conflagration, a fireball, a flame arrow... This has the nice effect of being perfectly RAW, and solving your damage question.
Of course, your player won't be able to apply his focus to it (unless you're the kind of GM who applies wolf focus to wolf-shaped fireballs). Is it really a problem? It is (or should be) a minor focus, after all. And has this is a simpler effect, with less requisites and all, he may not be a loser after all.
You should look at Magi of Hermes, also, as one magus there has a very similar focus (darkness).

Nothing stops you to later introduct "living shadows", on which his focus will be usable, but these won't be your normal shadows, will require either a breakthrough or a virtue, and will be summoned by Rego.

@DIREWOLF75

As to your third point, I would ask you to point me to where did you find the statement that the Arts were designed to cover everything

Based on how some arts are stretched to include things that would otherwise be hard to include in any art, i think its a rather good assumption to make

And a wrong one.

I seem to recall it is stated somewhere that hermetic magic isn't universal, and can't affect everything, which is one of the interests of seekers of knowledge: to perfect Hermetic Theory.
Even then, there are some things it can't affect. Like Time (which exists in ME). And maybe humors. And mutoing Species. And Regio. There are things in all "non-hermetic magic" supplements that can't be affected, or at least easily, by hermetic magic.

Note also that being able to affect something indirectly does not mean you can affect it entirely, shadows and species being a good exemple of it.

[Cuchulainshound]

Meh, I think that's over-thinking it.

In modern understanding, shadows are not "things", but an observed effect, specifically a lack of light. It's like silence, or hunger - it's the absence (or absence of intensity) of something, in this case "light".

But, in a very real sense, in game terms shadows are things. There are stories of them having a will of their own, grabbing ankles, leaving an "owner" (or wanting to), etc etc. And this is not explained by "excited species".

I still think they're Ignem far, far more than Imagonem, but I also think there's something more going on there, even if that "something" is not Hermetic.

[ExarKun]

@WolfOfCampscapel

Species cannot be transformed into a physical form, according to HoH:S, Jerbiton chapter. So MuIm is right out, barring a minor breakthrough.

But whatever fits the game, as always. Just stay consistent within the saga.

Can you say which page/title? it's very interesting, thanks.

[marciano69]

This thread is very interesting! So my two cents:

In a medieval paradigm, every object of the Earth (and the earth itself) emits iconic species. Without them, they would be invisible, like the air is. So, in an example, if a magus is standing at the sun by the morning, the sun emits iconic species, but so the magus!. Evidently, the iconic species emitted by the sun are greatly affected by the "light" property, so they are brillant (as the magus could testify). We could generalize then without much difficulty that every heated object emits lighted, iconic species. But what happens if there is a mirror or reflected water?. The iconic species must hit the surface of the mirror, but something more also happens: the "brilliant" property is transmitted to the mirror, and the mirror not only is illuminated, but the iconic species emitted by him adquire the same "illuminated" property, in a determinated angle. But what happens to the magus? the iconic species of the sun hit him, but the property "brightness" is absorbed by his body. The iconic species he emits are normal. The earth under his feet emits species, too, but the patch of his "shadow" doesn´t get (or absorb) any "brightness" of the sun, because the magus did so. So you have simply a patch of earth with the form of the magus, that emits "brightnessless" species (at least, less bright that the iconic species of the sun!). That would be a medieval shadow, i think.

But what is darkness? is it a 5th element? we suppose not. To make my point clearer, imagine we have a crystal orb, and a bonisagus investigating the nature of darkness, cast a PeIg spell to the inside of the orb (to make darkness, for example, duration day). so we have an orb with a three - dimensional darkness inside it! (to speak in modern terminology ). But, what is inside the orb? Ignem? not. Terram? neither. Yep, Auram! there is "only" air, an air that was invisble till it started to emit very brightless species induced by the spell. If it wasn´t so, we couldn´t see nothing at all inside the orb. (Or making a room dark would be impossible). You are simply, "obscuring" the air. So, if you want to make a shadow that tries to kill someone, you could do it, for example, with a Muto Auram spell (to make the air solid and with an evil conscience) with a Perdo Ignem and Terram requisite (to make the air a source of coldness and darkness, having "black" air). You target the form of the shadow of the victim, and invoke the evil, airy spirit of darkness that will try to suffocate him in cool ways. And voila!

EDIT: An additional note, the spell would need the special target: Shadow to be effective, but i would put it in a Mystery Cult, or ExMisc Tradition, or secret lineage, together with the focus).

Hope it helps!

[ExarKun]

(Marciano: "and voilà", that made me think about Doctor Who... (i'm currently watching the extra episodes after season 4...).

And, as like to say the doctor: Allons y!)

[Christian_Andersen (Christian Rosenkjaer Andersen)]

@marciano69

This thread is very interesting! So my two cents:

Hope it helps!

Wow, that is really interesting. I'll try to remember that, I happen to play in two different sagas two very different magi, but both somewhat interested in Imaginem.

[marciano69]

Hehe, thinking of it, have you ever wondered why the invisibility spell leaves a shadow? It´s because, although the spell eliminates the iconic species you emanate, you continue absorbing the "brightness" of whatever source of light you are in (leaving the shadow behind as i explained). A Jerbiton expert could investigate it further; for example, with a mirror. Let´s think in crystal... does it leave a shadow? Nope!. At much, it could give strange reflections of light behind it, but if you can imagine a perfect crystal... it would be effectively invisible (without shadow and reflections). Why? Because, the crystal, not only does not generate iconic species, but the only way of this behaviour is that he is also a perfect transmisor of all the properties of the iconic species that touch it!. Not only the brightness, but the colour and the form are transmitted. A jerbiton could realize it through multiple mirror experiments. Also, if you put a slab of wood behind one of its faces, you could see your own reflection, because it transmits all the properties back and forth, with the wood absorbing nothing. So we could conclude that the crystal have a property called "transparency"; that of not emitting iconic species and transmiting the properties of those that hit it. And that isn´t a property of Terram, as one could argue; Perdo Imagonem makes half its effect, and water (and other smooth surfaces, also evidently air) have it too.

So in conclusion, adding a Muto requisite (to transform your image acquiring the unnatural property of transparence) to Perdo Imagonem, and +1 or +2 magnitudes for complexity / flexibility, you could have the true invisibility spell. Although the question now would be: what would happen if you look to your "reflexion" in a mirror? .

[WolfOfCampscapel]

@ExarKun

@WolfOfCampscapel

Species cannot be transformed into a physical form, according to HoH:S, Jerbiton chapter. So MuIm is right out, barring a minor breakthrough.

Can you say which page/title? it's very interesting, thanks.

HoH:S, page 63, first column, last paragraph.

[ExarKun]

@marciano69

So in conclusion, adding a Muto requisite (to transform your image acquiring the unnatural property of transparence) to Perdo Imagonem, and +1 or +2 magnitudes for complexity / flexibility, you could have the true invisibility spell. Although the question now would be: what would happen if you look to your "reflexion" in a mirror? .

I would not go for a so easy solution.

IMO, the only way to become REALLY invisible is on base of the guidelines PeCo 40 "destroy one property of a person" and to chose "consistency". So you become "intangible" and so don't cast shadows... the base level 40 justify to reserve to it the "true" invisibility spell.

[marciano69]

Forgot to mention, but i think the research to correct the spell (everything i´ve explained so far) would require a Minor Breakthrough, to acquire the knowledge and test it. I would think that losing consistency would mean that you become really intangible (none could touch or sense you), making an effect really powerful .

[larkvi]

The intended object of this group of spells seems to be to create an arbitrary area of unexcited species and physical force. Destroying the excitement characteristic of species using PeIg would create darkness within the space, but the targets, being so highly arbitrary, would require finesse and complexity, and, while the canonical darkness spells don't have it, you would almost certainly need an Im requisite, as you are not affecting a fire or source of light, you are affecting a fiery attribute of species. It would be easier, I think, just to destroy all species coming through the space with PeIm--I think this would end up having the same effect in regards to darkness and impenetrability (though it would react differently to spells intended to see in darkness, as there are no species whatsoever to perceive). Muto could offer an interesting alternative wherein species are suppressed in an area and darkness is perceived only within it--the space appearing lighted to those outside. In any event, species cannot be changed into physical force, and there is nothing in the canonical physics that would allow the manipulation of shadows as anything other than a matter of species.

One could perhaps achieve the same end by just creating black shapes and using Auram to create force inside of them--the goal does not seem to be the manipulation of shadows (which are not realia) so much as it is the creation of black shapes with real force which could then be called 'shadows,' but not have any natural force or character. Any 'period' effects with 'shadows' manipulating things are almost certainly demonic or magical effects disguised as shadows.

[Yan]

@DIREWOLF75

Based on how some arts are stretched to include things that would otherwise be hard to include in any art, i think its a rather good assumption to make.

But an assumption nonetheless, and as pointed out above, a wrong one. Hermetic magic is not universal and it certainly does not affect everything in the world.

Ah... And exactly HOW do you KNOW that? And since the fact is that you ARE controlling them by controlling them indirectly, even if true, such an inability to target them becomes irrelevant.
You´re still affecting light or heat(by preventing or reducing its presence) anyway. The only exception becomes the absolute zero point in either case. And thats not something i expect to ever be something we need bothering with. Nor of course is it even suitable for the timeline.
Suitable for the timeline however, IS to affect cold and shadows as "targets".

"Light and heat also fall within the domain of this Form. It's important to remember that heat also includes relative absence of heat, so spells that result in cold temperatures are possible through Ignem." (ArM p. 139)
"Level 10: Destroy one aspect of fire (for example, heat or light)." (ArM p. 142)
As one examines the example Ignem spells in the book, it is clear that HEAT can be targeted by Ignem, as Light can. DARKNESS and COLD, cannot. It is quite simple really, you just need to drop your usual antagonistic personality and actually examine what people say in logical terms, instead of what you think might be best.
Targeting heat or light does not equal targeting cold or darkness, no matter how much you wish it to.

Except being able to exchange fatigue without anything else means fatigue IS being targeted. Lack of ability to manipulate it is another matter.

Wrong. The bodily energy is being transfered, not fatigue, as you can read on page 134.

Eh... hehe... I think you mean CrCo(as you´re improving something) or MuCo(unnatural change!) rather...

No, I don't mean either, I mean exactly what I said. I did not say improve, I said remove.

Oh i know. But IF you were to state restrictions against Cold and Shadow, then these other things would also be affected by such a rule change. Otherwise you would have to state exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions.
Or start making up new reasons for having several new Hermetic Limitations. Limits that will both feel and be very arbitrary and artificial, because in many ways, thats what they would be.

Rule change? I think not. Cold and darkness not being able to be targeted is pretty clear in the rules as written.

[DIREWOLF75]

But an assumption nonetheless, and as pointed out above, a wrong one. Hermetic magic is not universal and it certainly does not affect everything in the world.

Except the earlier above claim is incorrect afaik.
Time is one of the special limits so doesnt count.
Humours are indirectly affected.
Mutoing species i dont know where he got as i dont know any limits on that based on the description of MuIm.
And regios, well thats like saying that oh dear i cant make the earth into a rubber ball, how terrible...

It IS made to be as universal as possible.

"Level 10: Destroy one aspect of fire (for example, heat or light)." (ArM p. 142)
As one examines the example Ignem spells in the book, it is clear that HEAT can be targeted by Ignem, as Light can. DARKNESS and COLD, cannot.

Thank you very much mr Yan, you just created the reasoning for a new killerspell against magi.
As by your definition its impossible to ward against cold, there will also never be any Form resistance against it.

It is quite simple really, you just need to drop your usual antagonistic personality and actually examine what people say in logical terms, instead of what you think might be best.

And if you stopped for a second and used your mind you might even figure out why going by your line makes the system as a whole crash and burn because you forcibly introduce non-logical restrictions.
Logic is the very reason i think your argument sucks.

Come back and lecture me about logic when you can score above 191 on IQ-tests, as the very reason i score high is because i excel exceptionally at the logic and language parts.

ONCE AGAIN shall we? Controlling the exact amout of heat within a locality is fine by you, but once the abitrary way of measuring those degrees goes into the realm of "cold" then suddenly we can no longer target the exact sane heat within the exact same locality?
So then, when does Ignem fail to control "cold"? At 5C or 10F? At 0C or 0F? Oh i forget, those didnt exist in medieval times. And this IS the logical extension of your argumentation.
And its totally insane to try and use.

Wrong. The bodily energy is being transfered, not fatigue, as you can read on page 134.

So you base the argument on the GAME TERM difference?

No, I don't mean either, I mean exactly what I said. I did not say improve, I said remove.

Riiight... Directly adding a negative effect that improves the state of the target... Sorry no, not unless you change some rules.

Rule change? I think not. Cold and darkness not being able to be targeted is pretty clear in the rules as written.

Sorry but...
You´re quite welcome to try to prove that.