Shape of the Fire Lord AKA.... Muto Dragon!


I have an interest in designing a gruagach that can turn into supernatural creatures as well as mundane ones. I am sure I have read about this kind of stuff in the books, but cannot remember where are the discussions on difficulties to transform into a creature with a Might Score, or if that is even possible. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction? Thx :slight_smile:

Thread title refers to the arch-tradition of my troupe to search for some ridiculous thing to shout instead of the real name of the spell when we cast the spell with exaggerated voice and gestures. "Chicken Run!" for POF is still our favourite. "Muto Dragon" is still on the serious part of things compared to stuff like "I know where you hide your porn magazines. Your mother knows as well" for the PeCo spell that auto-kill and stuff like that.


There is a thread about transformation in dragon but IIRC, gruagach can't assume might forms.

You're possibly thinking of one of the Muspelli utiseta effects for shapeshifter (Rival Magic, pg 96). These enable them to turn into creatures with supernatural powers, although not ones with Might - the powers are fuelled by fatigue levels. "Scion of Fafnir" is explicitly given as an example effect.

With the right level (high) I see no reason why a Mu/Co(an) spell couldn't create a dragon either.

It's something I've considered for one of my PC's.


Oh, there are quite a number of reasons:

  • CrAn says that to create might creature, you need Vim requisite. First reason why MuCo(An) is not sufficient.
  • CrAn again says that you need requisite of the powers (so, if your dragon cast fire, Creo Ignem requisite).
  • only adding those requisite allow players to say: with my level 60 spells (base 20 +sun, + 4 requisite) I become might 70. (Which mean 70 MR, so parma 14). Thus you would want to add a cost in the spell for the might. Which? Either the base? (but that doesn't take into account the fact that a big beast is harder to manage than a mouse of virtue) thus you end up with adding levels to the spell, equal to level of might.

Finally you go to this message


Base 20: turn a human into a bird or fish ()the most difficult transformation level).

  • Vim requisite. Add a magnitude to the spell for every 5 points of power level
  • Ignem requisite
  • Extra magnitudes for size. Transformation starts at size 0

Shape of the Firebreather (MuCoAnIg 65)
Transforms you into a Might 15 dragon of size +4 (a young dragon) You can breath fire spending 1 Might point per breath. The breath causes 15 damage to a single target, like a POF.

Base 20, +2 sun, +3 vim, +4 size. Free animal requisite

High-ish, eh? :stuck_out_tongue:

There's a couple of quotes in The Mysteries: Revised Edition (pgs 44 and 45, The Great Elixir), which state:

"Hermetic theory does not in itself possess the ability to transform a human into a being of the Magic realm"


"Hermetic theory does not in itself possess the ability to grant Magic Might to a human."

Based on that, I'd say that whilst it's possible to turn yourself into a dragon shaped creature, it's not possible to turn yourself into a dragon shaped creature with magic might.

So level 50 and no vim (nor ignem) requisite. looks like a dragon, but it isn't one.

But with Creo, Creo is a requisite to "Breath fire" since you need be able to create fire.
I mean that there still bieng the Guideline to give a animal supernatural powers, and i think thatis applicable on Corpus, if it is not included. Then a +1 to the Fire and the base to an bird, adding Size and it should work, so that i have a similar spell, i think.

I mean "no Ignem" because he will not be able to breath fire :slight_smile:

Ah ok, but with the Creo and Ignem it could like requisites.
And forget about Vim, it isn't neccesary.,

Easiest way to breath fire for a magus that powerful, is to cast (seperate) CrIg spells - not include them in a single monstreous spell for p*ss poor penetration.

Well, those two statements are respected:

  1. Muto is not affecting your true nature: you remain human and are thus not a being of the magic realm, which are immortals, never mutating etc etc.
  2. you don't grant magic might, you turn in a creature which has it. It's not creo (granting) but muto (transforming)

..but the sum of these statements would mean that you do not get a magic might score, even a temporary one, neh?

Not really.

OK... here's a related question.

The resident Muto Specialist, the Lady Pellegrina, who has a Creo Deficiency, has a magical butterfly familiar. The butterfly has a fairly low Might, and a few minor powers (flying over a field to boost the crop, making a room of people happy, etc).

She would, ideally, like to create a Bond Power that lets her butterfly turn into a unicorn, and a dragon.

Ideally, the dragon could breath fire, fly, etc.

Could she do so with a MuAn[Vim] effect?

Or is it just possible to have a "dragon" that flies over fields to boost crops and makes a room of people happy?



To me there are not problem, using the Bond caould still usin their Might Based Powers and after of tth use others, like the two forms and others like breathe fire and all of that, ever i are mad based on limits of the Familiar Effects.

Well, she can do a simple MuAn effect (Base 5, and some size requisites) to turn the butterfly into a horse or a giant lizard. Changing into a horned horse or a winged lizard is probably base 15 (for the unicorn, based on giving a horse a horn) or base 25 (for the dragon, for the functional wings and flight. Flight might require a (free) Auram requisite if you consider that something as big as a dragon cannot fly naturally). I don't think a Vim requisite is necessary, I would say a dragon's body falls into Animal.

Now, for the powers, that's MuAn base 25, with requisites, either as a separate effect or with extra magnitudes on the first effect. Fire breathing, for instance, would be Mu(Co)An(Ig) base 25 (free requisites), with a duration as long as the initial effect, or you could make it part of the first effect but then you'll have to pay for each requisite: Mu(Co)An(Ig, maybe Au) Base 25, +2 (or 3) for requisites, +1 Concentration, +5 levels have the Bound maintain concentration... pretty high level.

Alternatively, you can simply enchant the bond with your basic Pilum of Fire, and make the fire breathing a cosmetic feature of that.

Finally, you can't give your butterfly the actual might of a unicorn or a dragon, not with Hermetic Magic. Try to feed it a lot of vis instead, that might actually work :slight_smile:

Rego Thread!! Rise thee, dead text!!

OK, second assault. :slight_smile:

I have been looking at the Gruagach magic, and while there is no explicit guideline to develop a shape with a Might score, it does not seem impossible either.

Our next saga will be played near the low country, in Triamore. My background story tries to link a dragon/shapeshifter magician with the dragon Pan Caudarax of "Trial By Fire" and "Land of Fire and Ice" fame to the character. The dragon cursed a city and was well, a dragon able to shapeshift IIRC, so that fits well with the powers associated with the gruagachan.

So I decided to take Mythic Blood: Pan Caudarax.

  • The minor focus will be in Cursing bloodlines or self transformation. So far so food
  • I would like the major focus to allow the character to shapesift to a dragon form. Smallish, like size +3, but still dragon-ish.

Note that this is a power that will hardly be used much. it is difficult to use such a power and not attract dozens of wannabe knightly heroes with the intent of slaying you, but it can still prove useful.

When it comes to shapeshifting, Gruagach magic has the following bases for Give Shape:
3: transform to land animal
5: transform to bird or fish (same base as transforming into a size +5 giant)
10: transform into solid inanimate object
15: transform to insubstantial object

For shapeshift to dragon I guess it could be base 15 if you want. +2 sun duration leaves this at level 25. Add +10 for Might and we are at level 35. Casting extra spells for "allow flight" (GvSh10) and "gain major virtue of breathing fire" (ROP:M)(GvSh10) you get a fairly complete small dragon.

Sounds fair?

Or would you say that getting the shape of a dragon is not enough to get a Might regardless of how many spell levels you invest in it?

Serf's parma

I'd use be base for bird (if flying) or land animal (if changing into a wirm).
Add magnitudes for size
Add one magnitude for Magical Might 0
Add one magnitude for each +5 might

Although, now that I think about it, this'd be an easy way for gruagach to bypass the "law" of magical resistance, so maybe dissallow MM.
After all, with a base 3, +2 size, +1 might, +2 extra might = lvl 20 spell, a gruagach could change into a bear of virtue with MM 10... And MR gets easier from here (lvl 50 spell => 40MR plus bear form!!!).
Since, as I understand it, your current saga is aiming for a more "down to earth" power level, you might not want this.

A medium possibility might be to allow you to emulate a magical creature you know very well, having studied it a season, or that you have an AC to, with the caveat that your MM can't be higher than its MM. This sounds pretty reasonnable to me, whatever the saga, and can very well lead to stories, with the character searching for more magical creatures to emulate. And what happens when he tries to change into a Demon/Angel?

EDIT: Actually, I want to play this!!!