Will have to check. I am not the circle nut IMS, and I tend to transfer SG power to our cruncher players when we do lab/covenant stuff (number crunching is the part of Ars magica that bores me), so I am not sure how it works right now. IIRC it basically summons water up from an underground river through the well shaft. or something like that. 2 sagas away (Toledo saga) so I might take some time to check.
Xavi
Presumably it assumes divisibility of water (the river isn't a whole, but many smaller bits) and then simply levitates each small "bit" of water upwards?
Makes an assumption I consider invalid, but that's the easiest model I can see.
I would agree, but then it requires repeated casting.
Chris
..except if you read T: Circle as allowing any valid target in the circle to be affected, even if the target enters the circle after the spell is cast.
An interpretation with which I disagree, but whch it has been pointed out to me is valid.
Feel free to break it, please.
Yes, I suppose it is and I'd forgotten that. I seem to recall a written canon interpretation the other way, though. I'll have to look when I get back to my books.
Chris
Please!
This is one serious problem with the otherwise generally very sound Ars Magica 5th edition rules. I'd really like an erratum or clarification from the line editor on this one!
The game seems to be consistently inconsistent on this issue -- which really does not affect only T:Circle, but also T:Group, Room, Structure and Boundary. Some spells affect only stuff that at the time of casting is within the Circle/Room/Structure etc., and keep affecting that stuff even when it leaves the Circle/Room/Structure etc. Other spells affect anything entering the Circle/Room/Structure etc. (only) as long as it remains there.
Let's focus on Circle. Take Magi of Hermes, which is a book with quite a few Circle spells -- in the corebook Circles are almost only Wards. Let's look at two Perdo Ignem spells. A Time for Slumber (p.14) dims any sunlight entering the Circle. On the other hand, Banishment of Warmth (p.132) is very explicit about cooling only stuff that, at the time of casting, is within the Circle: " Note that the spell must be cast after the targets have been set up inside the Circle; it does not affect items that are placed into the Circle once the spell has been cast."
These are not the only examples, even if we keep focusing on Circle in Magi of Hermes. Be Rid the Tell Tale Smoke (p.28) destroys all smoke created within the Circle (it would make no sense for it to have Ring duration, or to say it's "Great for setting up camp on the sly" if it only destroyed smoke initially within the Ring). On the other hand, Retreat as Flying Vermin (p.13) is specifically designed as to allow " grogs to rapidly retreat from danger" by transforming them into bats, so it would make no sense if it stopped affecting said grogs as soon as they left the Circle.
There are many more examples spread across the books if one looks at Room or Boundary Targets. One can only conclude that both interpretations are "canonical" and it's up to the individual magus to choose how his spells operate. In fact, since Retreat as Flying Vermin and A Time for Slumber, which take opposite positions on this issue, are from the same magus, it appears a magus can make the choice independently for each spell!
Thanks, ezzelino!
Chris
+1 to ezzelino. I totally agree. (Most) Circle spells can be designed in either way - affect everything that's inside me when the spell is cast, even if they later move outside me; or, affect everything that starts or comes inside me, throughout my duration, as long as they stay inside me - and the choice is made at spell creation time.
Such is broadly my interpretation (and the belief that, really, it needs to be hammered out on a spell by spell basis), especially when you consider such things as using PeTe to make a hole in the ground - I have the memory that the rules say that if you use PeTe with a duration greater than Momentary then the effect is not simply that the hole is made but that the hole cannot be filled in for the duration. I'm afraid that I really can't remember where I read that.
ArM5, p. 112, "Durations".
And the problem sadly, is with the Circle target.
Ahar. Many thanks.
And yet the target for the pit in the earth was Individual, an individual which no longer exists. If that can define an area where, for instance, no earth may exist then I have no problems with Circle being allowed to define an area wherein there may be no smoke provided that sufficient duration is attached and that it is negotiated with the Troupe beforehand. As long as things aren't inconsistent (as much as possible, anyway) or game breaking for other players, I tend to err on the side of keeping things interesting.
Technically, it's T: Part, which (perhaps surprisingly) makes a difference.
That one is Duration: Sun. It will stop at sunrise, sunset or when the circle is broken. The "stop affecting" is part of Duration: Ring.
[strike]The rest are good example of Duration: Ring affecting anything that enters it. I say Ring and not Circle because I wonder if Sun/Circle spells such as Retreat as Flying Vermin should affect those who enter afterward, though.[/strike]
Actually, the point I was trying to make was about Target, not Duration; so I think it's really about Circle, not about Ring.
Let me try to explain myself better. When you cast a non-instantaneous spell that affects a Group/Circle/Boundary etc. how do you determine which individuals affected, if some individuals are in the Group/Circle/Boundary at the beginning but not later and viceversa? Do you look at who is in the Group/Circle/Boundary at the time of casting -- regardless of who gets in or out later? Or do you look at who is in the Group/Circle/Boundary at any given time, so that who gets in becomes affected, and one who leaves stops being affected?
Once again, this may seem about Duration, because it's about the effects of a spell starting and/or ceasing; but it's really about Target, because it's about who qualifies, at any given time, as part of the Target.
Yes, I understand the concept of initial vs continuous but I'm not sure what determines which.
You are saying that Sun/Circle can be designed as initial {anything at casting time can go anywhere for Sun} or continuous {anything during Sun, until Sun or they leave the Circle}. But is that because Circle specifically add that Duration limit?
We have The Shrouded Glen as a continuous Year/Boundary, so Target:Circle or Duration: Ring have nothing to do with that. Forgive the second paragraph's brain fart.