Some non RAW questions for discussion

What happens if a faerie encases infernal or divine vis?
What happens if a mage consumes infernal or divine vis as per consuming magic Vis in ROP: Magic?
What happens in infernal vis and divine vis are transferred into the same vessel?
Ceremony is an ability listed with infernal, divine, and faerie, is there a magic version as well? What would be the breakthrough level to develop it for hermetic magic?

Just wanting to get some differing viewpoints on these questions, and maybe some consensus, or at least 'camps' of popular opinions.

Pretty sure Infernal and Divine vis react in the same way as matter and anti-matter.

As in mutually assured destruction releasing pure energy?

I was thinking more of a "Thooooom" noise and a sudden mystery of the missing covenant... and surrounding countryside/town.

You do realize that is not actually how matter and antimatter react, right? Matter-antimatter collisions apparently happn spontaneously in nature, and have been observed as low energy events in the lab...
but I digress... if that was how they really reacted then a pawn of each and a delayed spell could make for one heck of a 2 pawn based weapon. Especially considering how easily infernal vis can be obtained...

My initial though for Farie/Infernal - Nothing at all. The farie vis looks fine. Really. Perfectly safe. In fact, the infernal vis has lost all trace of any infernal aura. You should publish this finding to the rest of the Order, so that they may partake in your wisdom. :slight_smile:

And for that reason, I would argue that nothing like that would occur - it implies a successful use of Divine and Infernal vis in the same event through mortal will and reason. Based on the way AM is set up, Divine don't play that game, and Infernal CAN'T. One or the other would simply be rendered inert, and the consequences would be the same as if the magus decided to engage in defiling the Sacrament (wherever you got the Holy vis from).

The magic version can be found in Ancient Magic (the Hyperborea chapter).

It's not clear what "develop it for hermetic magic" means. I'd say that Wizard's Communion is the "hermetic" version of Ceremony, although arguably it's considerably less powerful (which is good, since Ceremony is scarily overpowered in all its forms).

This is surprisingy close to what I was about to write.
Full agreement from here.

Now I have the image of a ex miscelania tradition with ceremony as a virtue...
actually the diednes probably did have it...

We experimented with hedgies using Ceremony. Yes, scary stuff. IIRC someone posted the case in the forum a while ago of a bunch of Volkhovy hedgies being pissed off at thew OoH and (using Ceremony) cast a curse than destroyed the Gift of all the magi of the Order across Europe in their saga with a fairly average die roll.


Well, since you are disgressing...
1 proton ~ 1 GeV ~ 1.8 e-27 kg
1 kton = 2.6 e31 eV = 2.6 e22 GeV ~ 4.68 e-5 kg = 46 mg

23 mg of anti-matter + 23 mg of matter = 1 kton (compare to 15-20 ktons WW2 bombs)

You'd still need 3100 billions antiprotons per seconds for a 100 W bulb, though.

I may be off by a factor of 10 or so, but it's late enough...

Yes, and the observed event in the lab or when it happens spontaneously frequently involve single digit number of anti-protons, and I do recall hearing one scientist from Cern talking about how they simply allowed a few mg of antimatter to 'boil off' generating enough energy to heat a pot of tea for several weeks. Its the rate of reaction that is frequently over estimated.

I do not like the idea that the Infernal and Divine are in some way opposing yet equal forces. Equating it to positive/negative energy/matter is a false new-agey interpretation. As Saint Augustine wrote, evil is not a thing, it is the lack of a thing.
As for Vis, vis is just vis. It is all essentially the same, IMO. It just has "flavors"; different Arts and Realms. Again, IMO, a pawn of Infernal Vim and a pawn of Divine Vim are 99% the same. The "flavor" is different. They should have no reaction to one another. They are inanimate objects, they have no good or evil about them to begin with. Using both pawns in the same spell/enchantment might cause the side effect, and even then only if you botch. I think that is how the rules for alien vis work, only if you roll a "0" do you need to worry.

99% agreed.
Though IIRC some infernal Vis is so tainted that itforces a botch, no dice rolled.