Specialists vs. Grogs - why have specialists?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
42

So far we agree.

It is possible that I misunderstood your previous posting.

My point was, I do not believe a score 5 carpenter can save you twice as much as the blacksmith just because he can save costs in two categories. Once he saves you £3½, he is fully occupied. The advantage he has of his double category is that it is easier to keep him fully occupied. If he really could make a £7 saving, he would be able to make a very comfortable living elsewhere.

(Well, I think a blacksmith could also make savings on buildings, after all he makes the nails for the carpenter, but for the sake of argument, let's assume he does not.)

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43

I don't think anyone has claimed that the carpenter's savings should be applied twice, simply that the carpenter has more utility because his score can be applied to either category and thus has a greater maximum savings.
As to the blacksmith versus candlemaker, a lot of the savings for a blacksmith would be with regard to care of horses. Otherwise you are talking about durable goods that don't require much work for the most part or you start getting into the area covered by weaponsmith.

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44

I claimed that.

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45

I am not convinced every typical covenant maintains horses. Some do, of course, but often oxen and mules can serve a better job as draught animals, and few magi ride anyway. There are, however, many things for the blacksmith to mend. Buildings, carts, ploughs, knives, and scythes are durable, but they do wear out and need repairs or replacement. The metal parts may be minor elements, but they are ubiquitous. When the covenant approaches the size of medium town, there is little challenge to keep him busy.

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46

Sure, but how many candlesticks does the same size covenant go through as well? Of course a candlemaker probably does other things as well, like wax for seals on various things. My point is that blacksmith sounds more impressive, but with the fact that most covenants won't have horses, they are simply not the big ticket item you might expect. Not saying they are worthless, just that the potential savings in making something that is consumed constantly is as high or higher than upkeep on durable goods.

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47

blacksmiths also make tools which are consumed regularly. This includes tools for the other specialists and more importantly those people who earn the income of the covenant. Peasants need a lot more than knives and nails. They scythes as mentioned by loke, plowshares, shears for sheep, hammers, saws, pitchforks, shovels, spades, digging rods, axes, billhooks, the list goes on and on and these items are depleted in the exact same manner as horseshoes. sure each individual item might last for a long time, but part of the reason why is because the items are repaired when broken and the blacksmith plays a big role in repairing too and if you have a whole village where you need one of each tool for each household the blacksmith will be busy too. Same goes for covenfolk.

48

The thing is that it doesn't require a blacksmith to sharpen a knife, it does require a blacksmith to reshoe a horse. Also please note that I am not saying that blacksmiths are not useful, merely justifying the fact they have the same limit to contribution as candlemakers or tailors. Metal goods- pitchforks, shovels, etc, cover a wide array of things, but are also far more durable than candles, baskets, or clothes. Horses don't wear shoes out, they throw them, which is why horses greatly increase the utility of a blacksmith.

49

Candles, most people do without. When night falls, go to bed, and if you absolutely need to, you can burn some horse fat in a dish. No, wait, no horses, but I suppose ox fat does just as well :slight_smile:

Anyway, this just another point where the model falls short. A covenant on a tight budget can probably not save much from a candlemaker, because they do without such luxuries. A more comfortable Summer covenant can save much more. The flat 20% (or whatever) makes little sense, other than simplicity and playability of course.

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50

There is the line on p 67 about "in some cases you may want to make common sense adjustments to the cost saving limits" - but "just burning fat" in a dish is something that really doesn't work that well- I tried it with bacon fat once (I was hoping for a candle replacement that smelled like bacon), you really have to separate out the tallow, which is part of candle making.

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51

Is that tallow extraction really a specialist trade? I agree, some work is probably needed, but I'd think an average peasant can do it. BTW it does not have to be tallow. Virtually any kind of oil will do, but you do need a wick.

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52

Side bit of minutiae: Pitchforks, definitely, and probably a number of other tools we take for granted to be made of metal were not made of metal at that time. Pitchforks in the middle ages were grown by splitting branches or trunks of still growing trees and tying them to grow to have multiple prongs (2-3, 4+ were not called pitchforks). If I had a pic of the one hanging on my mother's wall I'd share it.

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53

yes and no- realistically anyone can make candles as well, the question I when having a professional craftsperson will save money. If you use less fat to make your tallow candles then yes, you will save money, so a professional can save you money. similarly anyone can make dip candles, but having a professional means it can be done more cheaply. If you want to get to that level of minutia in how things works I recommend GURPs- for one thing they require authors to do actual research and the rules aren't based on people pulling things out of their backsides and asserting them. Also, tallow s not an oil, but a hard fatty substance, usually extracted with a steam process, at least in terms of modern day industrial scale- I did work on automation controls for a beef processing plant and have actually dealt with tallow extraction.

54

I should have written «virtually any kind of oil will also do» :slight_smile:

55

You could have also made comments about burning straw or wood, but the point is that having a professional can save money, even if there may be other ways to save money as well.

56

Regarding candle usage...
I am not an historian, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
The main activity for mage is labwork, which requires a fair amount of indoor activity. At the time windows were more slit in the wall than proper windows, since the main concern was preserving the heat and glass was expensive. Thus large bay window was unheard of.

Also, most lab items and books are fragile, so working without protection from the elements is out of the question.

So mages needs lights, lots of it and for long duration. Thus my understanding is until every mage has design his own way to get rid of candles, they will go through a large pile of it on a regular basis.

Scriptorium could be the exception were more opening and natural lights would go through but at the detriment of cold protection (possibly people working there all day long might not benefit for the +1 on aging roll for good conditions).

So unless a covenant has access to good quality glass panel, to allow nice large windows, candles or any other source of reliable light is a must have.

I tried to google some answers, so we can assume that a decent size candle will last 12 hours (it burns 0.1g/min for modern candle - thank you wiki) for a light of 13 lumen (it will be a 2cm wide, 25cm tall candle with modern wax/candle making technology, using 72 g of wax). For reference, in working space, we requires 500 lumen per square meter (I am managing project related to factory building). Obviously, you can work with less light than that, but it gives a fair idea of how much light we need to work comfortably for hours.
When reading summae and tractatus, probably two or three candles are enough per day, so that's 180 candles a season, so 13kg of wax.
And while working in a lab where you need to lighten a much larger area, consumption will rise. Of course open fire and brasero will constribute to the lighting.
Lets average that taking in consideration day light and such, we are probably looking at 20 kg of wax per mage per year, around 280 candles per mage. A covenant of four mage would keep a candle maker busy all year long, especially once you includes the needs of specialist like scribes and copyist.

I understand that I made a lot of assumption for my broad calculation, but at least I am confident that the order of magnitude is correct.

There are magical solutions for all these issues and some are of relatively low level and easy to put in place. But not every covenant and definitely not every Spring covenant have access to them.

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57

I am not a historian either, but I have tried to search for texts discussing the use of lighting in medieval times. All that I can find emphasise the use of natural light. We know that buildings were designed to make the best possible use of natural lights. None claim widespread use of artificial light. And everybody who has tried knows that candle light and oil lamps are not very practical. The light is not very good and there is a significant risk of accidents.

Extensive use of candles to light the scriptorium must surely be an anachronism.

It is somewhat harder to find historical sources to shed light on life in the Hermetic laboratory. Wizards tend to be exentric, so I am sure you find all sorts. There are probably some processes which need attention at midnight, so that natural light is not an option. Some of the variation is captured by the virtues, like superior lighting. The default, more likely, is to have one or two lanterns and move them about to illuminate whatever is needed at the moment.

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58

Perhaps. But we know that a well-lit lab is an advantage when studying certain Arts (See Covenants), so some magi absolutely will throw silver at candle makers like sailors on port leave.

59

Some will. No doubt.

But with this demand, they will quite quickly throw a little bit of vis on it instead. A constant effect magical candlelight is only CrIg 9. Lab texts for different variants of lesser enchanted devices that any or almost any newly gauntletted magus can do must be everywhere.

According to Kenneth Hodges' price list from the Berkeley archive, candles were 1½d/lb in Somerset 1338. With Ezechiel's numbers that's about 4 candles per penny. If you burn a candle 12h/day year around it costs you 90d/year. A standard lab upkeep is 240d, so the candle is more than a third. (OK, maybe you do not use the lab every day, but OTOH a single candle is probably not enough, so it should even out more or less.)

These numbers probably work out nicely. The superior lighting virtue adds +1 upkeep, which amounts to £½ if the starting point was a standard lab. That's £½ spent only on extra lighting for typical use, half the year. It allows you about three extra candles a day.

What I have been wondering for a while how much magic you need to acquire a magical lighting virtue in the lab. What do you think? Three such magical candlelights? Or 25 levels of effect? Or is a single lamp without flame for level 19 with constant effect?

60

Up to your troupe, to my mind.
I believe there's an example in GotF.

61

Thanks. I was clueless of how much a candle could cost.

The assumptions I had which lead to this relatively high needs of candle are the following:

  • mage are secretive by nature, even more when it comes to their sanctum
  • thus they will be more careful about spies and ways to look at their work through their windows/slits/openings
  • PCs mages tend to be very peculiar about maximising their lab time, thus won't accept the limitation of daylight to slow down their power growth :grin:

Between that and the fact that there is a fair share of covenants that are in caves or underground, needs for artificial lights, through candles, lanterns or spells should be in high demands.
And lanterns use candles - it is only a more efficient way to control the hazard that naked candles are, and also help focus the light.

In Covenants, p121, "Magic Items for Laboratories", if the magical effect duplicates a Virtue, ... it is gained immediately". Then further down "if the effect does no ressemble a laboratory flaw/virtue... every 10 level grants one point of Specialization, 20 level to improve one Characteristic".
For light, CrIg 5 (base) creates a light as bright as direct sunlight. +1 for Conc duration, +1 for touch = A room bright as a Summer Day, +5 for an object maintaining concentration. It is basically the upgraded version of Lamp without Flame.
It will cost 2 pawns of virtus and with a lab text, most mage out of Gauntlet should be able to perform the minor enchantment.

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