Your "firstly" and "secondly" contradicts each other.
So, what if those kittens run elsewhere as kittens are prone to do? Do they keep supporting the arch above them despite not being there?
I dont agree with you regardless of what physics system is used in this case.
You´re missing or avoiding the point. Your earlier statement gave the logic that a mountain will still remain where it is, even if by using Muto you remove its base. So, please DO explain how Aristotelean physics allows for flying mountains will you?
Copout excuse of completely zero relevance as the exact example wasnt the point beyond showing that it doesnt work. Point being that your argument ignores the effects a Muto spell may have INDIRECTLY on its surroundings.
When the spell is active, yes, because when the spell is active, there location isn't necessarily important though you could make a spell where it is if you so wished, I suppose. When the spell ends, the arch collapses and the missing kitten returns to stone elsewhere.
Which is fair enough. Could you explain why not?
If you use Muto to shrink the base of the mountain vertically, the mountain sinks. You cannot move things with Muto, though you can give them a form that normal laws cause to move. You cannot directly get rid of the base with Muto; that requires Perdo. You can turn it into something which can then be easily removed - changing stone to clay to easily reshape it, for instance. My statement was based on a misunderstanding of your argument, for which I apologise. Your argument is flawed, I think, because whilst Muto could change shape of the mountain, it does not do anything else. An unsupported rock falls. Muto cannot make an unsupported rock, however. It cannot break things. It could make a mountain standing upon a thin sliver of rock, or shrink the bottom few feet to a thin layer, or just rescale the whole thing, but it cannot remove the rock. If you change the bottom of the mountain into water, the water will flow away and the top layer of rock, unsupported will fall, if the magus so wishes. When the spell ends, there'll be a lot of rock where the water was and a shorter mountain left behind. The normal laws of physics for water apply. If the magus wishes to make the mountain remain a mountain shape made out of water, he needs to use the guideline for unnatural water. If he wants to sever the mountain from the earth, he needs (depending on the mountain) Rego or Perdo or both.
Nope, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make.
The Muto changes the nature - you make a man temporarily have the nature of a man with leaden blood. It makes him a man who is healthy with blood of lead. The fact that his blood would be useless to another person means nothing to him and vice versa. He is still completely healthy because he is as his nature expects. The standard example of turning a man into a fish so he drowns on dry land would apply.
Because there is no system of physics that allows supporting matter to be elsewhere and still remain a supporting matter?
You cant have both. Your Firstly essentially makes it an illusion, Secondly says thats exactly what it isnt.
Otherwise, if you make the earth under an enemy into mud, nothing happens because "now the integral component of the ground is mud"... Clear enough?
In your example, you get the result of crushed kittens most likely. Because the arch falls down once its support is removed, which is very likely to happen since kittens dont tend to stay still.
Oh i most certainly can. Turn it into water and you get a big splash when the rest of the mountain falls down. "Were this not the case, Muto spells would only ever be illusions and the whole technique would be worthless to the Order as an whole."
Ah so now Muto can only change the shape of things? Eh, not really no.
But it doesnt MAKE an unsupported rock.
Now you´re inventing conditions that must be fulfilled for Muto to work at all.
And making Muto completely worthless in the process.
Dont need to. If i Muto a bird into a glass cup while its 50m above a stone pavement, my spell didnt break it, but the end result most certainly will be a very broken bird.
Or does the glass cup keep flying around so that it doesnt fall down and break, which according to your reasoning, it must do. And it also adds intelligence to the glass cup, because if it were to fall on something soft, it could survive the fall. Does it then fall?
:mrgreen:
It will fall unless some sort of new support is provided to replace that which was lost.
And now AGAIN you contradict yourself! You said the kittens could run away and still support the arch, so WHY cant the water go away and still support the mountain then?
If the kittens can, the water will as well, which once more gives the result of a flying mountain.
A mountain that lost its weight because you removed its support...
I think a Mu(Re)Te(Aq) spell would be better.
Except according to you it doesnt... Except when you want it to.
And his blood would kill the other person instantly because he is NOT part of the original spell and therefore having such blood is not the other persons nature.
Lets repeat the essential part:
Otherwise, if you make the earth under an enemy into mud, nothing happens because "now the integral component of the ground is mud"... Clear enough?
"Were this not the case, Muto spells would only ever be illusions and the whole technique would be worthless to the Order as an whole."
That wouldn't fly as I read the rules. Perdo is instant and permanent. Making the duration longer than momentary would effectively cause the destroying effect to repeat itself.
Otherwise it would be easiest of all to destroy something permanently, and progressively harder to destroy it for longer periods of time.
But this effect could be made as a Rego effect (possibly with a Muto req), to create an opening by folding back the wall. The Muto should be included, because a solid stone wall can't be moldes by normal means. Rego can create 'natural' effects, and it is quite natural to chip a hole with a hammer and chisel, leaving the rubblr on the floor. But that hole remains there. Muto allows you to close the hole and reshape the wall.
Well, perhaps a bit late, but if we look at a similar spell (see Rock of Visicd Clay):
Rock of Viscid Clay
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Part
Softens rock enough that it may be dug out, molded, and otherwise manipulated in the same way that hard river clay can be. The rock is slightly sticky. The spell affects rock in a roughly spherical shape with a three-foot diameter.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 Part)
We see that it makes the same effect (well, i understand that if it cab be dug out, you can traverse it like, swimming, or something like that) and it´s even Base 3. Of course, perhaps you should add +1 for Part (if the wall isn´t differentiated from the rest of the room, for example) and / or +1 Size (if not, you would have to crawl through it).
Not the same effect at all! Softening rock to clay keeps things very much within Terram (clay is Terram) and the properties are wholly natural. And if part of something turning to hard clay has bad side effects, well, so be it. The proposed spell effectively turns part of a wall into air or water, without adversely affecting the structure at all.
