Spell advise: crossing stone walls

Hi there!

We are running a weird saga in my troupe, one that deals with a multiplicity of player characters that do not belong to the same covenant, even if they are interrelated. So far we have a covenant in the works in the isle of Mann, a "regular" covenant in Hibernia (Lumen Septentrionalis) inhabited with a few normal magi and the project of a vitki infiltrator posing as a redcap (for solo adventures). The main adventure is the Manx experience, but the others will be used when we want a change of pace from a constant struggle for survival.

The characters of lumen will be used for the more "mainstream" adventures that any of the players in the troupe wants to run. One of the players (Jordi) wants to develop a seeker specialized in searching ancient tombs and the like (and after 15 years since we played it, he showed a desire to play Calebais again with this character). He is designed a ,multi-purpose character specialized in magical investigation and movement more than combat (he just has a single combat spell) relying in grogs to do the dirty work.

One of the spells he wants to do is something that allows the magus and his companions to cross stone walls and doors (wooden doors are not a problem). The guidelines are somewhat dodgy here for the Muto Terram spells. The question would be "how unnatural has to be the stone to allow them to cross it?"

The spell would need to be diameter duration at least to allow for the characters to cross without much problems, and touch range. The problem is with the base guideline

In MOH there is a spell to do that in Persephone's entry, but the base guideline of 10 being used seems a little bit high to us. In Calebais there is a wall that turns into pudding consistency so you can cross it (slowly and holding your breath), but we are unsure about the level of "unnaturality" of such an effect. Would an effect that turns stone to clay be enough to achieve this?

Thanks for your tips :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Xavi

Probably not.. clay is pretty solid.. you wouldn't be able to walk through it if it's thick at all. Depending on how fast he's wanting it to work, what you might want to do is make a variant spell that has a rego requisite, and lets you shape the clay you make as well, could then just make it into a tunnel and back again after.. also handy for sculpture too, my Terram magus had one which did that, can be quite useful.

But if you're wanting a speedy entrance through a wall and it to be fine after, then yeah, the highly unnatural base 10 guideline listed is probly about right.

Base 10n transforms the rock into air for the duration of the spell, and then back to stone. If you did not want something THAT unnatural, but "pudding consistence" as it appears in Calebais (that seems to be a smaller change in the rock....) we guess that the guideline should be lower. The guidelines for the level of change for Muto Terram are extremely open ended, and this is why we were asking here :slight_smile: Base 10 can do that for sure, but we guess that a lower magnitude should be able to do that as well....

Xavi

The guideline is correct. You really can't move through solid dirt or clay, so it needs to be air. Since in Calebais the space has a "pudding" consistency, I would put that to the effects of the wizard's sigil or maybe a purely cosmetic effect for fun.

All that being said, there are a couple of spells under ReTe that are stated as being base 4, but in fact, there is no base 4 spell! I just looked at the errata for both printings and nothing was posted. So I will post that up too. Until then, I think you have to go by what others have said.

Hi,

Very! Very very.

The essence of Terram is that it is solid! Under normal conditions, it is the only one of the four elements that is truly solid. Solidity is what makes Terram Terram.

That said, the guideline you are looking for is not necessarily lvl 10, which would apply only to making a section of the wall extremely viscous, maintaining its ability to support the structure (Aquam requisite). Simply blowing a man-sized hole in the wall would be level 5, transforming a part to air (Auram requisite) or water (Aquam): But the structure might collapse. Or you could change it to sand (lvl 2, no requisite) and let the grogs dig.

Anyway,

Ken

The base 10 spell in MOH transforms part of the wall into air (Au requisite), keeping its structural integrity. A lower magnitude should transform it into something LESS permeable than air but that you can still pass through, right?

Xavi

I don't think so. Take the same spell and give it an Aq requisite and it would transform the part of the wall into water. Now this will spill out, of course, but the point is that you sort of have 4 choices: earth (which it already is), air, fire and water. You can make a flimsy or strong version of each type, but that is it.

Back a few posts, where someone mentioned pudding-like consistency. What does that mean, in game terms? Loose mud, heavy water? We just keep coming back to the same place. You have a stone wall. To get through it you can:

  1. Blast a hole or Perdo one.
  2. Change the stone to something you can move through.
  3. Move yourself to the other side without caring that it is stone.

Since we are talking about 2), then you really can't move through dirt or mud. Plus, they would tend to pour out of any opening.

Away from my rules so I can't check the guidelines, but I would suggest you go for PeTe with diameter duration instead.

Hi,

No.

By "less permeable than air," we mean something like Aquam, which falls right into the level 10 guideline. It is especially unnatural because not only can you wade through it as through fluid, but it holds its structural integrity like Terram.

Anyway,

Ken

Muto terram guidelines are as follows for changing earth:

Level 1: Change one property of earth.
Level 2: Change earth to another type of natural earth (sand, mud, loam...) .
Level 3: Change earth so that is slightly unnatural. Requisites may be required.
Change earth into a liquid or gas. Requisites may be required.
Change earth to stone, or vice versa.
Level 4: Change earth so that is highly unnatural. Requisites are often required.
Change earth into a mixture of liquid, solid and gases. Require the appropriate requisites.
Change earth into a plant. Require Herbam requisite.
Make something grow to eight time its previous volume.
Level 5: Change earth into slightly unnatural liquid or gas. Require the appropriate requisite.
Change earth into an animal. Require Animal requisite.
Level 10: Change earth into highly unnatural liquid or gas. Require appropriate requisite.

As I see it base 4 might be enough: transform earth so that it allows you to pass trough it (highly unnatural) and keep structural integrity. No need to change it into a gas or liquid.... You will be dirty when you emerge on the other side, but that is a small price to pay :slight_smile:

B4, +1 touch +1 diameter +1 stone = level 15
Transforms 1 cubic pace of stone to an earthy-ish form that allows you to pass through it. That is enough to open a (narrow)doorway in a 1-pace thick stone wall.

More along the lines about what he wants :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Xavi

I think that Xavi is right.
The two methods: ReTe 3 level based spell (Maybe with some duration like diameter or Concentration) and the same for MuTe(Aq) Level 4 Based. The good point that is only need make the move across the wall.
Caul Thiever's door
MuTe(Aq) Level 15
Base 4,+1 to affect rock, Range: Touch, Target: Part, Duration: Momentary.
For Example.
Trojan Door.
ReTe Level 15.
base 3, +1 for Rock, Range: Touch, Target: Part, Duration: Concentration.
(Or Maybe... "Open you Sesamo?)
Edit:
The two are very similar, effectively and first because there can be magis with problems with the combinatios of some Arts or simmilar problems.
Concentration Duration with Terram permits the passage for a group, or to close suddenly the way. With Finness rolls you can change the dimmensio of the way or his possition. Could be possioble make a "Craft" Magic really difficult for make the passage possible more times and permanent.

Hi,

Well, by that reasoning, why not just go for the level 1 guideline, to change one property of earth? Leave everything the same, except change the property of "can't walk through it?"

Anyway,

Ken

Ovarwa, don't be pedantic :stuck_out_tongue:

In general (and as usual) the answer of the board has been "no, you can't do that". This is the usual answer to ANY spell query posted in this board. And the answer is hardly ever useful per se. I have been given and given myself that answer in the past for other spells, bith mine and by other posters.

However, it is really useful to post the query regardless, since there are always cool ideas ans snipets that you can take from the discussion. And I am extremely grateful for that :slight_smile:

In this case, the spell is hardly worthy of an archmagus' gauntlet (level 30 range) as is being suggested. It is a spell to cross a stone wall, not something to teleport you to the other side of mythic europe, conjure a residence or slay a giant in one fell swoop. It belongs to a way lower spell magnitude by our reading of what it allows you to do, and the difficulty of casting it. Not easy either (level 20 is not that easy to cast) but not in the line of BOAF, mystic tower or seven league stride. We are talking about a spell that allows a magus and a pair of grogs to cross a wall, not a ME-shattering spell.

As usual, with ArM there are several ways to skin a cat. even limiting ourselves to terram. You can turn the wall to air or water, destroy it, or make its solidity questionable. In this case the change is not as extreme as making it water or air: it is making it loose sand. That is a less extreme change, since it implies a single element. It is still highly unnatural since it keeps structural integrity and allows you to cross it. IMS the lower magnitude is justified here. YMMV and obviously does. No biggie really :slight_smile: Diverse sagas, diverse solutions.

Thanks everybody for helping!

Cheers!
Xavi

I lean more toward the level 10 base effect. Otherwise I think what you're really doing is destroying the solidity of the stone and trying to get around the lvl 40 Perdo requirement (see PeCo guidelines).

Either way, you should probably add +1 part, for when it's a part of a wall and not a door and +1 for up to sizex10, unless you want to crawl under a 1 pace (3 ft) height. Also, if you don't do the increase size, it will have to +1 part for all but really small doors.

So as I see it, B10(requisite) +1 touch, +1 diameter (or concentration), +1 part, +1 size, +1 stone, for a total level of 35. If he were willing to have the wall marked by the passage, it could be less, but it is that feature which brings it up so high. I think pointing out the level is akin to Archmagus is a bit misleading to. Additional parameters make smaller spells higher level. Also consider that there seems to be

If you still stick with B4, with the addition of part and size, it becomes lvl 25.

Given that with Muto you can change a rock into a rock statue by temporarily changing the shape, it'd be perfectly legitimate to use the level 1 guideline and the target Part to simply shape a shortlived hole. Making rock maleable enough to reshape by hand or walk through would be level 3 - changing rock to slightly unnatural clay. Destroying the solidity is without doubt Perdo, and more difficult, but then a Perdo specialist wouldn't think so.

These spells would all have different ramifications - the and third leave the wall unchanged. The middle one would result in the hole remaining. The first, for the duration, leaves a window in the wall, whilst the third does not. As for concerns of structural stability, those aren't an issue - Muto cannot weaken things, just set them up for easier destruction by mundane means. Muto can turn a man into a man with molten lead for blood, but this doesn't hurt him - it makes him into, for a short time, a person for whom leaden blood is normal. Modern forces, intertia and the like don't apply. A wall which now has an hole is a wall with an hole in it.

All of which is a very long winded way of saying that I agree with Xavi, but think he's being overly cautious with spell levels. Crossing a wall is trivial for a magus.

Not true i would say. Otherwise you´re saying that you could remove any amount of stone (done by Mutoing it to be soft and just pushing it away), but everything and anything resting on the removed stone would still stay where it is.

Also, its the stone you Muto that changes and for the duration has another "normal" state, not the stone resting on it, unless of course you spell the mountain as far upwards as it reaches, which is unrealistic (and not much fun).

For example, try doing a blood transfusion from the guy with molten lead blood, you wont get a happy result!
Because it was the person Mutoed that was affected, not the surrounding.

Well, technically by your description, i can then make a hovering mountain. Just use Muto to get rid of all stone at one level and everything above will still stay suspended in the air... Or at least suspended on a needle of rock in the middle.
Weight still applies no matter what. And exactly what IS "modern forces" can be argued as well.

Hi,

I don't think I said no; I really meant that you could just as well go the whole way down to the level 1 guideline, and why not?

Anyway,

Ken

Hi,

Thought experiment: I Muto the capstone of an arch into a litter of cute and rambunctious kittens. Do you think the arch doesn't weaken? I then, being the kind of guy I am, smack one of the kittens with my club. Do you think the kitten resists with the Soak of the capstone, or the Soak of the kitten?

Anyway,

Ken

The way I see it, you can make base four apply, but to change 'the ability to walk through it' your basically changing it's 'solidity'. I would therefore add that this will necessarily create a potential structural issue since the 'solidity' of the stone is what gives it structural strength and makes it desirable as a building material. So while I think I'd allow base 4, I still think there is a sticky wicket to get around.

Firstly, for the duration of the spell the arch does not weaken, because it is now an arch whose integral components are kittens. When the spell ends, if one of the kittens is destroyed then the arch reforms with a missing component. Secondly, for the duration of the spell, the kitten behaves as a kitten, just as a human under a MuCo(An) spell is affected by Animal spells. As such, it soaks as a kitten. Were this not the case, Muto spells would only ever be illusions and the whole technique would be worthless to the Order as an whole.

Modern physics and magic which explicitly works in a universe where aritotelean physics holds true - it just doesn't work.

So you hold that anything muto'd becomes immutable for the duration of the spell? The normal laws of Mythic Europe apply except where magic alters them according to the normal laws of magic. You can use Muto the shrink the mountain, and to hollow it, and to turn it into ash and gargoyles. For the duration of the spell, it behaves as if these things are valid. A hollow mountain does not collapse. A paper castle still stands, but can be blown away or set on fire. A man turned into a fish can swim and breathe water, but suffocates on dry land. The new form my be unsuited to its environment but is never hostile to itself.

True. That's because blood transfusions do not work in Mythic Europe. Wrong medical paradigm. Mind you, you'd have the same problem if you turned the man into a rock or a roc and noone would try a transfusion there either.

Hermetic magic and the natural philosophy of Mythic Europe have very counter-intuitive results if you try to reconcile them with the modern world. It cannot be done. And, for me at least, the fact that spontaneous generation of vermin works is a wonderfully immersive thing, and what differentiates Ars Magica from most other RPGs which have never paused to consider what the universe actually is.
No, because you've changed it.