Spell Design: Constant Dream of the Oubliette

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Salve Sodales!

I have a concept for a Magus that is very interested in Memory Palaces, Loci, and elsewise aspects of memory and perception. In looking for ideas to support this concept I came across this RAW spell as an inspiration.

Inmost Companion (ArM5, pg 149)
MuMe(An) 40
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind.

The target’s mind is made physical as a bird. This bird normally stays close to the target’s body, but need not. If the target has Magic Resistance, it protects both his body and mind, as normal. No matter how far it travels, the target’s mind controls his body, as well as the bird’s, as normal. In particular, it can see through both sets of sense organs. If the bird is killed, the target also dies, as his mind has been killed.

(Base 25, +1 Eye, +2 Sun)

I believe this is using the level 25 Muto Mentem Guideline for "Make a mind or spirit solid" while applying a Requisite for Animal due to the Form of the shape as indicated. This I found very interesting as an example of applying Muto to a mind as a discrete target for transformation as an object, even up to the extent of making it physical. Experimenting with this idea I came up with the following.

Constant Dream of the Oubliette
Mu(Re)Me 30
R: Touch, D: Conc, T: Ind

Makes the targets mind into an independent mental construct and transports and holds/confines it as desired within another mind.

(Base 15 "Utterly change a person’s mind", +1 Touch, +1 Concentration, +1 Rego Requisite)

The intent of this design is to use the Muto Mentem Guideline of 15, Utterly change a person's mind, in order to make it separable from the target similar to how the Inmost Companion separates the mind from the target. However this is intended to be a lesser transformation as the mind is still left unchanged in the Form of Mentem but is moved from one mind to another using Rego.

The basic intent of this is to take the mind of a person "hostage" inside a specially created memory palace of the caster, placing them inside the designed memory of the location and restraining them there while the effect is active.

Like Inmost Companion the person is still able to function and can perceive and operate normally, but also can "perceive" what the mental construct of their mind in the memory palace can perceive, and perhaps even interact with others (other minds? Spirits?) that are present. Spells or effects could target either the physical person or their mind, within the mind of the caster/receiver... presuming a way of perceiving them is available. In theory the caster should be able to interact with them within their own mind, but I'll grant we are in rather hypothetical territory.

I imagine the spell as designed being used through an Intangible Tunnel and then somehow sustained to keep the "prisoner" locked into this state of being until released.

Curious for your thoughts!

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2

would they be a prisoner or a spy? If they can still act normally it seems to me you have given them access to your mind rather than holding them prisoner.

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They are under control via the Rego element of the spell for as long as it is active. And the second it was inactive their mind would be transferred back to their body. So I don't think they could interact with anything the controller of the spell didn't want them to? I'm open to other thoughts however.

4

A couple of feedback.

  • I agree on your rationale for Base 15 MuMe for transforming a mind into a portion of your mind for a period of time;
  • It is useful when deciding on the level of a spell to consider what the base effect would be for the requisites you're adding onto a spell effect. In this case, I think base 15 ReMe would be appropriate for holding and confining a mind. It is in a way somewhat similar to the spell "Voices from Hollow Space". I'm checking this because how complex a stand-alone effect would have is important in determining whether to add +1 or +2 magnitudes for requisite. This gets you very close, but not quite at, the sixth magnitude threshold where the base book suggests +2 magnitude for the requisite would be appropriate;
  • One element that I'm careful with is using the term mental construct within your spell description. For me, a mental construct is a virtual space. What you most likely have here is a person's mind that is bound/hostage within yours, but not an actual mental construct within your mind that you can interact with in the way a mental construct or a portion of your own mind can be interacted with. If you want to go as far as having access to the mind as more than a bound virtual representation of the person's body... I'd say you're stepping into intellego territory and need an additional requisite and more magnitudes.
5

Exchange of the Two Minds (ReMe 55) exchanges the mind of two people for Year duration using the guideline for ReMe 20 (albeit it is not very clear how, because the guideline doesn't match the effect).

Using ReMe 20 Constant Dream of the Oubliette would still be lvl 30, but you drop the requisite. ReMe seems a bit better to me because you are not changing the form of the target's mind, you are transferring it from a place to another... But your reasoning for Mu(Re)Me also seems ok to me.

I'm also concerned with the person wreaking havoc on your mind. =9
Could they somehow regain their freedom with a concentration roll or something like that and explore the mind palace, maybe even without you noticing (there are a few ReMe spells that allow for rolls to resist the spell effects)?

6

Yep, I don't understand it either.

7

Exchange of the Two Minds (ReMe 55) exchanges the mind of two people for Year duration using the guideline for ReMe 20 (albeit it is not very clear how, because the guideline doesn't match the effect).

Using ReMe 20 Constant Dream of the Oubliette would still be lvl 30, but you drop the requisite. ReMe seems a bit better to me because you are not changing the form of the target's mind, you are transferring it from a place to another... But your reasoning for Mu(Re)Me also seems ok to me.

This is interesting! I think I see this differently but in a way that is perhaps difficult to express. This Rego Mentem effect moves two minds between two bodies, wholly moving and replacing each with the other. To the extent that a mind is movable or manipulatable, this seems to move and (temporarily) attach the minds to the new bodies basically as they would normally be within a body. The minds are left in a thus nominally natural state otherwise, they have just traded places. As long as we accept that Rego can move them even if they are not normally a thing that can be moved then this seems well within the scope of what Rego can do. But note that the mind is no longer in control of the original body, and is not made into something distinct from but connected to that original body.

Muto appears to be the thing which allows this in Inmost Companion, in altering the state and functioning of the mind in making it distinct but connected still to the original body.

I see the application of Muto in this instance being to achieve this separation while maintaining an unnatural connection (a set of altered qualities/properties) while also arguably making it possible for the mind to exist not as a mind but as a thing contained within a mind. Like a memory or a thought. Then the Rego takes this mental object and moves it into a desired target mind as a receptacle and keeps it restrained there.

  • One element that I'm careful with is using the term mental construct within your spell description. For me, a mental construct is a virtual space. What you most likely have here is a person's mind that is bound/hostage within yours, but not an actual mental construct within your mind that you can interact with in the way a mental construct or a portion of your own mind can be interacted with. If you want to go as far as having access to the mind as more than a bound virtual representation of the person's body... I'd say you're stepping into intellego territory and need an additional requisite and more magnitudes.

I've been thinking about this and there are some interesting questions here.

I have in mind (ahem) creating more advanced spells for creating memory loci and I've been pondering something for creating a "Memory Palace" that isn't designed specifically for information storage/retrieval but for being this "inner space" that is realized as Creo perfected memory loci.

That might be the more intricate effect in some ways?

Perhaps that might a fruitful exercise for exploration. What would be necessary for realizing the creation of such a inner mental space, if it isn't feasible using the rules for creating memory loci?

Once a person or thing is present in your mind, I'd argue that they are within the scope of perception of your normal mental faculties like anything else (arguably?) in your mind. You can't physically see them, but you can see and interact with them in your imagination ... and that this is the realm where they or their mind presently exists so this is genuine interaction because of their unusual state.

I have a few additional ideas here as well, for completely transforming things or people into mental constructs and transporting them into this "mental space" as it were.

The Inner Vault
Mu(Re)Te(Me) 25
R: Touch, D: Conc, T: Ind

Transforms any inanimate object (potentially requiring further requisites) into a mental construct and transports/stores it in the mind of the caster for the duration.

(Base 10, +1 Touch, +1 Concentration, +1 Rego Requisite)

This is the highest level listed for Terram transformation and is already stipulated to require requisites of the Form that the target is transformed into. I'd certainly agree that transforming a physical object into a mental one is a "highly unnatural" and while there is another "highly unnatural" guideline at 4 for "highly unnatural" in some way but still generally solid. The greater degree of transformation seems appropriate as there will be nothing solid about a mental object.

Gates Of The Inner Domain
Mu(Re)Co(Me) 40
R: Touch, D: Conc, T: Ind

Transforms a person entirely into a mental construct and transports them into the mind of the caster, controlling and keeping them there for the duration.

(Base 30, +1 Touch, +1 Conc, Rego & Mentem Requisites)

This uses the guideline for "Turn a human into an insubstantial object" yet instead of being a physically insubstantial object (Auram) instead uses Mentem to make them into a mental or spirit Form object instead.

8

I disagree. You're bringing another mind into your mind. It's not your mind, with freely accessible memories. It's merely another mind in your mind. Think of it as close to schyzophrenia - you might have a separate personality in your mind that's shouting at you, trying to cajole/convince you to do something. I'm not aware that a schyzophrenic person can easily access the memories and motivation of that other voice that's in his mind. The same can be said of people with multiple personality disorder. They're not necessarily aware of what their other self are doing when they have a mental lapse. Hence, you might be able to talk to it by stepping into your memory palace, but you won't just passively read its memories without including an intellego effect of some kind.

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9

I always saw it very much directly: Muto is changing the mind into a bird. The mind still controls the body because the mind controls the body; it is irrelevant if its a bird, a stone, or whatever the mind actually is.

But I get what you are trying to achieve with the guideline 15: you see it changing some kind of intrinsic quality of the mind of being "inside the body", maybe changing a "natural mind" (inside the body) into an "unnatural mind" (outside body).

Humm... Thinking again, I'm not sure I fully agree with this interpretation. In Ars Magica, mind is the link between soul and body. I'm not sure if the concept of "the mind is inside/dependent of the body" is valid. But then again, that's just my understanding.

I don't think this was ever the intent of the spell? As long as it's just "I know where the person is inside my mental place and what it's doing" I think it seems legit (as long as there is no possibility of the person gaining free reigns inside his mind). The person is directly interfering with his mind after all.

10

I don't disagree about reading their memories or the like. I think that would require Intellego magic, separate from this effect, to achieve. The latter part you mention "talk to them by stepping into your memory palace" is all that I think this makes possible. Possibly also there (as their mind is literally present there, as asserted in Inmost Companion) cast said Intellego spells on them. So I think actually we agree on how this would work?

11

Pretty much this. Though also since the target remains under the influence/control of the Rego component of the spell they should be able to have their "freedom" inside the mind of the caster managed/controlled. As in ... you can't leave the "Memory Palace" that exists for "guests" and does not contain information as it were.

12

There was a very short description correlated with a long contextual explanation. It wasn't clear to me whether you intended some of that explanation to be something your spell enabled (e.g. reading their mind like you read yours because it's in your mind), but you seemed to be making an argument in that direction, which is why I replied.

13

I'm not sure if vanilla Hermetic magic allows one to "change something into a mental construct", even though it's certainly possible to create a mental construct from scratch. In this sense, note that changing something into a (mental construct within a) dream requires the Mystery of Dream Magic, even though creating dreams does not (I guess? I was sure I saw a plain spell to give someone a dream, but can't find it any more).

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14

I'd be curious for anything you could cite there. Also, is this in reference to the "summon the mind" effect, or one of the physical transformations? The physical transformations seem just a natural application of the "insubstantial" degree of transformation of Corpus but just substituting Mentem for Auram as the target Form?

15

Both.

Well ... not quite in my view. It's one thing to turn a person into something of the same stuff as ghosts, with its own independent existence in some place in the world. It's a very different thing to turn that person into a mental construct, something that does not really exist "on its own" or "somewhere" in the physical sense. The latter in my view is a little like changing a person into the protagonist of a book: not making that person like that protagonist, but really having the person disappear from physical reality, having the book talk about him, and having him perceive what the book says he's perceiving. I don't think that's possible with vanilla Hermetic magic in 5th edition.

16

IMO, the first question should be: What does the spell do?
This is not clear to me :frowning:
I believe it is meant to imprison someone's mind into your own, cutting that person's access to their own body?

As I see it, this is 2 effects:

  1. A MuMe spell at Personal range to turn part of your mind into a countainer that will block the links between the mind and the body of the target.
    By itself, this spell would be useless, but you could use it to store physical things changed into minds with other spells (assuming, as Ezzelino notes, that it is possible. Maybe Dream Magic can help? Actually, could you be trying to duplicate Dream Magic without Dream Magic???).
  2. A ReMe spell to move the target's mind into the oubliette.

Otherwise.
Let's say you just move someone's mind into your memory palace. What could this do?
The person could examine your memory palace and access it. And you would probably "remember" that person, as if she was someone you knew.
So maybe, what you'd want is to transport your mind into someone's palace (if they've got one).

All above subject to lots of caveats, due to:

  1. not really understanding the discussion which is sad, because it feels like high-level magic theory
  2. headache worsening
  3. Not access to books which I haven't read in too long
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