Because there is no permanent duration. A creo ritual can use a momentary duration, at which point you create a perfectly natural thing.
Not so, ritual stuff is only permanent if it is momentary, i.e. create a perfectly natural thing that continues its existence normal. So a bucket of water created with a momentary creo ritual creates perfectly natural water that lasts indefinitely. However, a creo ignem mom ritual creates a fire that unless it it is fed withfuel and oxygen, goes out pretty damn quick. One cannot create a permanently burning fire without fuel or oxygen unless you use ring duration.
Correct, but that's not necessarily a problem, Afaik it nourishes just fine, but disappears at the end of its duration. So that water will certainly kill you if you use it exclusively as a water source to drink from for a few weeks. But a day or twos use, or continued use supplemented with real water over a period of time shouldn't be a problem. Although now I think of it, i do recall that maybe non-ritual food doesn't nourish at all (except to stave off feelings of hunger). Can anyone comments?
I don't think so, because they're not the target or subject of the spell. Like the flying castle example in the main book, the plants aren't directly affected, and thus aren't Warped.
Just to clarify.... I am often cumbersome in how I write what I am trying to think. I know that ritual spells with vis and mom duration makes true and real water that will last forever, however my only problem is the spring. ((Granted we may be completely agreeing and it is only my thick-headedness that mistakes what we are saying as different)) I don't think a spell using Creo and Aquam will make a permanent spring. I think it only makes the amount of water framed by the parameters of the spell. I think the caster would need some Rego and Terram and Aquam spell to make a real spring, but with no vis needed.
Again I think we are agreeing, but I think I am just a bonehead and not seeing it.
Water is the odd one out here, because of the clearly stated base-4 effect 'Create a spring with a low flow rate' in the core rulebook - which doesn't create a singular volume of water but a source that continues to produce water.
I'd take the opposite approach to most here: I'm happy with a momentary ritual version of that effect (level 20, because rituals cannot be level 5) creating a water source that is permanent, but that water source would have some potentially serious ramifications. Irrigation of formerly arid land, or creating an oasis in a desert - these kinds of things have a knock-on effect with regard to mundane powers, etc. Like many ritual spells, this one has the capability to shift the balance of mundane power.
And at the end of the day, it is still a level 20 ritual. I don't see it having any more or less impact than a ritual that makes a field bountiful for a year.
Besides, many of the things that a SG might want to use lack-of-water for quite possibly have supernatural origins. Creating a spring in the middle of a super-dry desert would probably anger the spirit of the desert, who would dry out the spring by use of its own Perdo Aquam power. Thus, such a spring may well provide nourishing water for 10 minutes before the spirit shows up, after which the magi now have an annoyed desert spirit to deal with. Was 4 pawns worth it just to refill your waterskins once? If it was that or death by dehydration, maybe.
I've gone a slightly different route in a past saga.
For me The create spring type guideline does indeed allow you to create a spring for the duration. But it only works in a place where a spring could possibly exist. IE on the ground. No using the spell to make a spring pop out of the third floor of your tower or a water flask unless you throw some muto and some other reqs in. It also probably wouldn't work at the botton of a salt mine or on a tiny barren rock in the middle of the Dead Sea. In essence it's creo improvement not creo creation.
As an improvement the water that comes out of a spring is 100 percent real, even if the effect is only temporary. Think of it as like making a week cow healthy enouph to give milk. Sure your technically improving dry ground, which should be some weird Re(Cr)Te(Aq) effect, but hey hermetic theory is weird. After all you create flaming stones (lightning) with air magic.
While I'm inclined to agree with making the spring require to be somewhere a spring could reasonably be, there is all sorts of fun story potential in creating a spring in a water flask. After all, you can't turn it off...
But then the water isn't nourishing, which is the whole point.
As for the D: Momentary creation of a spring creating a generator, I disagree.
I've always seen it as creating a large reservoir of water, which surfaces as a spring (with high or low flow, respectively.
Ofcourse, one of my players argued that "Clearly it alters reality so that water naturally occurs in this location, and weather patterns and what not maintains the necessary level of water." - and yes, he used to play MtA alot.
Anyway, no, technically and by canon the spell guideline very specifically says that you DO create a spring and not just the water that comes from it.
Now, PERSONALLY, i don´t agree with it.
That´s another problem with the RAW, that you can´t make permanent Rego effects. Which i think may be the reason why the CrAq "create a spring" was written as it was.
Don´t think so, i agree with you. But the rules don´t.
Yup, but the increase in total energy of the universe is permanent.
And there is some question on how to read the RAW in regards to fire. You COULD read "create a fire" as if it worked the same way as "create a spring", yes it sounds a bit loopy, but...
Magic fire doesn´t need fuel after all.
:mrgreen:
Duh, what did you think i meant? Which is easier to write, "permanent" or "Momentary Creo Ritual"?
Not if it´s a momentary/permanent ritual. Otherwise, i believe it´s to interpretation. Which means anything but the Momentary ritual becomes even worse in comparison.
And a "natural" spring created with a CrAq ritual will not burn somebody, despite the fact that a "natural" fire created with a CrIg ritual will (until it burns out).
Fires and springs have different natural properties. This is reflected in what happens to the "natural" object created by the corresponding Creo ritual, when the magic ceases.
A "natural" spring created via a CrAq ritual can potentially run dry (once the magic is over), via whatever mechanism causes a true natural spring to run dry. However, remember that this is Mythic Europe. I suspect that all natural springs are spontaneous generators of water. So they run dry due to the actions (or inactions) of spirits, or demons, or something similar. Mythic European springs don't run dry because of hydrodynamics (lowering of water table, depletion of a subterranean aquifer, etc).
+1. Good explanation. It is a hermetic ritual that creates a spring. No need to look more into it. Not a single spell stands a very close examination if you get so picky.
