Spell level question for Elementalist

Working on a blind Elementalist and have a question about spell level. Eyes of The Bat doesn't use Touch. Would touch range be needed for InTe effects ? My understanding is range is to the one having their sense modified? Also assuming that Intellego effects are 'intuitive' and the sense is funnelling the intuition through the common sense.

Eyes of the Elementalist InAu[Te][Aq][Ig] 30
Base 4 : 4 : 4 : 4, Per,+2 sun, +4 vision

Aurum: Detect the boundaries of the air, does not permit fine discriminations but can "see" behind you. (Doesn't require touch but possibly needed for Terrem) possibly to also Sense what air is touching... but eyes of bat does.
Terrem 4 see an object and its surroundings, sense feet that tread the earth is base 4 with +3 size. Can assume then it's pretty far. Also, dirt on things.
Aquam, image of water and immediate surroundings. So if it rains, can see a lot.
Ignem, Sense levels of Heat. Warm bodies

I could drop it a magnitude to do hearing or even touch. Then have a separate synesthesia effect to filter and make some things visual and some not, kinda like tuning in. May need to invest into Concentration.

Anything with magic resistance is a dark blob I'm assuming.

T: Vision is likely incorrect - a blind elementalist doesn't have a working sense of sight to receive the information the spell provides.

Also, page 114 of the core book states "A single spell grants a single magical sense. To gain several magical senses, you must cast several spells.". I'm not sure if you intend to make it one spell or several from the notation, but it should be several.

Im pretty sure the sense picked was just the mental imagery that was invoked. It creates a magical sense of that re is a lvl 20 InIg spell that allows infravision and says it's useful in the dark.

Light doesn't seem to matter for the seeing through rock examples either.

I think if it were a MuCo spell, then it wouldn't work. Are my thoughts.


The Dico Calculus on page 31-32 of MoH uses 2 linked effects to allow a blind person to read with Im and Me.

There is HP p.84 InIm 5 Fingers for Eyes (R: Touch, D: Diam, T: Room), which makes a blind caster "see" the room he is in. It avoids any trouble of blind people with T: Vision spells running afoul of their missing sight.


Edit: I think the solution is in the paragraph stating to give a group Magic senses it's Muto Mentem. Intellego must be a hyper specialisation of Mentem. Which fits with the theory of mind In A&A.
Thanks for input!

ArM pg114 (describes sense vision limitations) vs ArM pg141(spell Vision of Heats Light)

The latter explicitly states it's good in the dark. I think Eyes of the Bat uses hearing just to lower the magnitude and get 360 perception. My guess on this interpretation is that otherwise all spells could be Sense of Touch. Just feel the boundaries of air. Sense fires at a distance etc. Since the Magic sense isn't confused with mundane. So to explain the descriptions I'm interpreting it as a Eye like, Ear like, magic sensor that feeds what's sensed into the mind as that kind of sense.

It's possible that interpretation requires an extra magitude though, the spell that sees through rock (pg153 Miners Keen Eye) has +1 magnitude for "see through intervening material" on top of +4 vision. Lvl 20 base is make senses unhindered by earth.

Hence my confusion. Maybe I should design things as Darkwing suggests, simply scry. Use range and target as what can be detected. Then no need to explain what is and is not detected.

But I really do think one creates a separate Magic Sense that just operates like the mundane ones. Not that one supercharges existing senses, that would be Muto. Straight up scrying though totally gets rid of the problem, it's just harder to defend to the Tribunal.

Aside from the blind part, is the way I'm interpreting Elemental Magic correct?

That's how I've used it, i.e. you don't increase the level of the spell if you add an elemental requisite to an elemental spell. My elementalist maga has a variant of True Sight of the Air (p127, Arm5) which includes an Aquam requisite so she can see through water as well as air/dust. Thanks to Elemental Magic, the level is unchanged compared to the standard spell.

That's not my understanding of what the core book says about Elemental Magic at all. I do think the writing is unclear, though. Mostly, "there is no disadvantage." You could argue that a higher level is a disadvantage. You could also argue that not being able to teach the spell is a disadvantage. These two are in disagreement with each other. So let's consider a few parts of the last sentence. First, and most importantly, the requisite is still there. You can see that with "primary Art" and "the requisite is." That means your spell doesn't lack requisites and gain the benefits without them. It means your spell still has the requisites as normal. The only question is whether you add levels or not.

So how does Elemental Magic help if the spell level doesn't change with my interpretation? That's where "use" in that last sentence comes in. Let's say you have a spell that transforms air into fire MuAu(Ig), and you have scores of 10 in Muto, 10 in Auram, and 5 in Ignem along with a focus that applies. Normally you would get 10+5x2=20 from your Arts to invent and cast this spell. Instead, you get 10+10x2=30 (ignoring the Ignem requisite) from your Arts to invent and cast this spell. But maybe I've been reading it all wrong. In a really brief search, I haven't found a sample magus with Elemental Magic to confirm the canon rulings one way or another.

(Note: Casting requisites never add levels, so, since the only question is adding levels, those are irrelevant.)

My interpretation comes from a few places. Firstly, the core rules on adding requisites (p114) says:
"As a general rule of thumb, if the spell would still do something without the requisite, but it would do significantly less, then each requisite adds at least one magnitude to the level of the spell."

So if you invent a variant of True Sight of Air that also works on water, you have to add an Aquam requisite, and increase the magnitude by 1 (because seeing through water is a significant improvement to the normal spell). If you don't have Elemental Magic, the spell becomes InAu(Aq) 20.

Elemental Magic says "Your elemental magics are also more flexible than those of other magi — there is no disadvantage in adding elemental Form requisites to any elemental spell." I interpret having to increase magnitude in return for adding a useful effect as a disadvantage, and so Elemental Magic allows you to ignore this cost. The spell becomes InAu(Aq) 20. No-one without Elemental Magic can learn the spell though, as it's illegal for them (tbh, I'm less certain on this part, but it's what we've gone with in the campaign I'm playing in).

Elemental Magic is very vague about what a disadvantage is, but as the Virtue is on the weaker side, I don't see any harm in allowing this.

EDIT: I'd missed the text about ignoring requisites entirely, mostly because my elementalist has all 4 elemental arts within a few points of each other! I think it means that if you invent a multi-element spell, you can invent and cast it based on the 'primary art', i.e. the one with the highest base effect. In the case of True Sight of Air/Water, both Au and Aq have the same base effect level for seeing through the medium, and so I'd rule that you can pick either Aq or Au as the primary art. If the spell also let you see through rock, the primary art would be terram and so you'd have to use Te to invest/cast. Technically, the resulting spell would be InTe, rather than InTe(Aq,Au), albeit an InTe spell with two 'ignored' requisites.

I just don't see the necessity of adding a magnitude level to allow a spell doing something more as a disadvantage: for me it's just a requirement. There aren't Elemental Spells, capitalized, which would benefit of that "ok this spell skips the necessary magnitude increase thing", just elemental spells, which happen to be those regular spells related to the four elemental Arts (in fact the Virtue points to that citing the spells of these Arts as elemental spells), and the virtue says nothing of spells, but of the caster gaining a benefit with these otherwise regular spells. So my interpretation would go alongside with Callen's. That benefit would be that if your requisite Art score is lower than the primary Art score you ignore it at the time of casting, which means that having an Elementalist with similar scores in all elemental Arts is pointless and, in fact, turn the Elemental Magic virtue into something quite odd, as these more benefited by it are those with one (or two) main elemental Arts quite high, and the others very low.

The only supporting evidence for this is actually quite thin: the Tremere template in the scorebook have that virtue, and knows the spell Rain of Stones MuAu(Te) (spell that by the way doesn't have any magnitude level increase for the requisite) at level 20. But he have Au 6 and Te 6, so he doesn't even have any particular benefit using it than any other magi with these Art scores, as the primary one and the requisite are both at 6... odd virtue, odd character.

Not being able to teach the spell is also a disadvantage to most magi (probably via writing it down), right, since the majority of magi learn their spells from lab texts according to canon? Thus the very Virtue would seem to be inherently contradictory. That's why I wanted to find a canon example of a character using it.

This is clearer. Elemental Magic is quite clear that there are still requisites, not that the requisites aren't there. This would be InTe(Aq,Au). The question is about the level.

That's a nice way of stating it. I see it the same way. I see the disadvantage is that you have to use your lower Form normally.

That's why my preference with someone with Elemental Magic is to have Affinity/Puissant in just one elemental Form (my favorite being Auram) and Muto.

Definitively Muto and Auram. Invent something like Conscientia's Conjure From the Mist from Magi of Hermes with a shorter duration (and maybe smaller size, to make the level more affordable) would be quite handy. Not to talk about a similar spell to turn Auram into Ignem. That Muto specializing approach is the only way I can see that virtue giving an edge.

[size=150]The Marriage Dance of Djinns[/size]
MuAu level 30 Elementalist only.
Base:15 , +1 touch, +1 diameter, +1 part
Only available to cast in an existing wind.

The caster holds her outstretched arms to the wind and designates an area it touches. Then spins. Once and the wind dances with her. Twice ignites it's passions. Thrice promises it's commitment. Then she stops and points, binding consequence.

Contested Athletics (victims if any) vs Finesse(caster) roll.
Victim wins: +25 damage immediately, +24 a round from heat, +20 a round from whirlwind of glass. Per round damage from separate sources, soak individually. If the victim is able to fully escape, +12 damage per round until spell ends.
Victim loses: +48 damage per round from heat. Check for deprivation every 5 rounds. If victim escapes caramel nugget center, see above.

Spell design:
Muto Auram base 10 - transform amount of air to something wholly unnatural. Base 5 is a mixture of elements remember.
We'll do +1 touch +1 concentration +1 part to affect a limited area within an existing wind.

So level 25 make wholly unnatural is ambiguous so we'll say it doesn't add anything, it just allows the following effects and maybe substitutes Rego for a whirlwind. Fire Whirls are common in brush fires so slightly unnatural for spontaneous generation is generous. Wholly unnatural has to be really cool.
Base 10 of every other element is still only +1 magnitude. We want more. So let's increase our base to 15. Now the spell is hard to cast, but we hit 6th magnitude to be closer to known rules. An additional effect of 6th magnitude of a requirement is +2 magnitudes. A non elementalist will need to add +4 to +6 magnitudes.

Level 30, MuAu - all 4 elements at base 15

Teeth of the earth mother is base 3 with +2 fancy effect and +2 group. So let's say the +25 damage is a 15 effect if victims fail an athletics roll.

Ignem is easy, +20 damage... but let's get creative. Base 10 will melt lead, assume base 15 is a step higher for iron. Molten Iron is +12 on the heat and corrosion damage table. If you are unfamiliar with the table the damage listed is less than the generic Creo Ignem because damage is now based on exposure and not as straight forward.

Small part of character exposed, base damage. Entire limb, double damage. Complete immersion, x4 damage. The temperature to melt obsidian is in the same ball park as Iron. We really don't want to mess with the base 3 Terrem, so we'll say instead of simply stone, we'll do stone/glass for obsidian.

We can encase a person in obsidian. But it will need rego to hold it for complete immersion. That seems way too much effort. We haven't used Aquam yet. We could make a corrosive something, but... let's stay creative and use the Aquam(which also affects lava) to cool the outside.

We will have a molten obsidian center with a solid crust. In a whirlwind of glass.

That would encase a person and do +48 damage a round if they fail a Dex roll and are caught in the caramel nugget center. Then check for air deprivation.

If they do ok on the roll but are caught halfway between we have partial exposure, +24 a round. But... the whirlwind of obsidian shards... Teeth of the Earth Mother is +25 damage with possibly more subsequent rounds. We could have made the air or water caustic, we didn't, let's wrap it up into a general damage of +20 a round every subsequent round. Since the molten obsidian is kinda a one time thing, we'll change the duration to diameter and allow Finesse for targeting and control the first round or so to facilitate the desire for a contested roll. After that it's uncontrollable.

So let's pull it all together. MuAu level 30 Elementalist only. Normal invention would be +4 magnitudes minimum. My Maga is a Flame Dancer with Performance Magic Athletics so her version would use performance to cast, hence it's description. Level 30 for a level 50 effect which would be a ritual for non-elementalists.

If this seems too powerful, remember PeCo 40 just kills people.

[size=150]Break! [/size]
ReAu[Aq][Ig][Te] 15
Base: 5 +2 Voice, Mom, Ind

Control Up to metal very unnaturally
Control up to +15 damage Fire Quickly through space
Control Water in a Violent way
Control Very Severe Weather Phenomenon

This one needs help in interpreting its damage

[size=150]Strike the Sky[/size]
Rego all 4 elements, level 30
Base: 10, +1 Touch, +1 concentration, +1 great strength, + 1 precision

Folds ambient heat, air, earth, and water over it's self and focuses into a single strike of the medium touched. This produces a phenomenon like a whip crack (shockwave). A Finnesse roll allows control to do either a diffused effect(shockwave) or an aimed 'bullet' (soliton). The casting only produces one, concentration is required because momentum does not exist.

[size=150]Rain of Blood[/size]
Mu[Re]Au[Te][Aq][Ig] 20 elementalist only
Base: 10, +1 touch, moment, +1 part

A wind must exist prior to casting. The caster chooses a designated spot the wind also touches. For a moment wind previously blowing away from the point slows, stops, and is still. Then the air converges from all sides, freezes then explodes in steel and fire.
+25 damage one time application of Teeth of the Earth Mother (Dex roll allowed)
+15 damage cold
+15 damage fire
+10 damage force
Soak as multiple sources or one? Athletics roll allowed to die while back flipping.
Strength + Size stress roll 9+ to avoid being knocked back if near the center.

Name refers to the effect moments after.

No idea appropriate scaling of damage based on distance to center.

There's what, five?, magi in TtA with Elemental Magic and I'm not sure there is one that offers any insight.