I would just point out that it actually says: "Remember that, if the maga can cast the spell under calm conditions, she can use a simple die and thus avoid the possibility of botching." (emphasis mine). So the "no botch under calm conditions" seems to depend on the usage of a simple die, which is never the case with Rituals.
I would also point out that by RAW the "default" is one botch die on a stress roll; so, although exceptions are possible, one should always assume that a Stress roll can botch unless the opposite is explicitly stated.
Ahh, thanks, I glossed over simple die for using vis. So, I was definitely incorrect in applying that to Rituals.
Ritual magic requires a stress die, but it doesn't dictate the conditions, whether they are calm or stressful, it just dictates that it is a stress die. Whether that stress die indicates that there is a risk of botch still seems ambiguous. Although, I take the view that it means conditions for a ritual are stressful. But, that's an interpretation.
Please do go on. You are making an unsupported claim, at least give an argument for that step.
Are you saying anywhere we see "stress die" we can say "no botch because we are relaxed"?
Are you saying there's an exception for the "stress die" used for Rituals?
I am sure you have reasons to believe this, but can you build a rational case for it? JL's interpretation clearly matches RAW, bullying won't change that. I want to see if I am missing something that would make both interpretation valid.
Well, a participant who is not the caster is just ... a bystander
Botch rules that apply to casters do not apply to bystanders.
However, botched magic (of any type) if often harmful to bystanders.
So, in the end, it's up to the Storyguide.
For example, p. 86 of the main rulebook, bottom of the third column: "Mastered spells are always cast with a stress die, but if the maga is relaxed [i]there are no botch dice[/i], even in a non-magic aura or when using vis." (emphasis mine) - which, if you may recall, is the passage that I cited in my original post that started this whole falferal.
Also: ibid, p. 6, third column, fourth paragraph in the section "Stress Die": "Some stress rolls cannot botch."
Ergo, by the rules as written, some Stress rolls cannot botch.
Now, if there is an unequivocal clause in the rules as written stating that, as you said, "Since you always have a chance to botch Ritual spells, it can never relaxed.", I would love to know where it is, since that would put this whole seven-pages-and-counting debate to bed once and for all.
Except if you read another couple of sentences later where it states that mastered spells always use stress die and mastered spells cast in calm conditions do not have a chance to botch. That is the example of the stress die being used but no chance of botching.
A bystander is a bystander. A participant in a ritual spell sounds like they are doing something in the "casting" of the spell. To my knowledge, AoH is the only spell that talks about all magi participating in the casting.
Yes, but as far as we can tell, the rules never explicitly state that Ritual spells (when sufficiently mastered) can be cast in a relaxed situation and thus do not botch, and that's the crux of the debate.
It can be assumed that, since the rules don't specifically give this as a way that Ritual spells differ from Formulaic spells, that they are no different in this regard, and thus that a Ritual spell is capable of being cast in a relaxed situation to eliminate the risk of botch - although since a Ritual spell always uses a Stress die, you can't use a simple die in a relaxed situation as you can with Formulaic, and thus must have Mastery to be able to cast the spell without risking a botch.
It can also be assumed that, due to the time- and vis-consuming nature of Ritual spells, they are inherently incapable of being cast in a relaxed manner and thus always run the risk of Botch.
As I said earlier, both sides appear to have built strong cases based on their interpretations of the rules as written. So, as the Original Poster, I am not going to address the matter in this thread unless someone can cite a passage that unequivocally supports one side or the other - which is none of the passages cited thus far, unless cited in conjunction with another passage that all 108 replies so far have somehow missed.
Well then, you don't have a case. You are using the point to prove the point. The whole argument becomes fallacious.
If the only point that makes a spell relaxed is that you are using Mastery, then I could cast a spell relaxed while holding on a ledge by 2 fingers because I mastered the spell. It is the same argument!
I must be failing to see the circular logic unless it also applies to formulaic spells as well. If you SG has said that the situation is relaxed and you have mastered a spell ( which is always casted with a stress die) then there is no chance to botch. That is clearly in the RAW on pg 81.
I'm just not seeing the circle. please enlighten me.
i do understand that people want a hard and fast rule for what is a relaxed situation so they will not have to think but just make a call as a SG and stick to it. People are getting bent out of shape but this has always been a SG call. The rules give a possibility of a no botch ritual but still a SG call.
I agree completely.