I just want to a minor clarification on your position - I assume you do agree that the raw vis used in rituals means that there actually are botch die involved when casting a ritual under relaxed circumstances, as per the p. 83 rule "For every pawn of vis used, the maga must roll an extra botch die if the casting roll is stress and comes up a zero. This includes the pawns used to make a Ritual spell possible". Is it your position that, under normal (relaxed) circumstances, these are the only botch dice, i.e. that the basic stress roll is without botch dice? So that someone casting a level 20 ritual would need to reduce 4 botch dice, not 5, to reduce any risk of botch, for example?
- Why am I relaxed? Because I use a botch-free strees die.
- Why do I use a botch-free strees die? Because I have mastered that spell and I am relaxed.
- Why am I relaxed? Because I use a botch-free strees die.
- rinse and repeat
This argument is fallacious. You have to decide whether "holding on a ledge" is relaxed or stressful before adding the mastered bit. And it is the same thing with Formulaic: you first decide if you are relaxed and can use a simple die, then you apply mastery. It always come to what the Troupe and SG decide.
Try finding answers to the questions below that allow mastered Rituals to be relaxed. I put sample answers that represent the biggest obstacles to consistency. My best answers are {not using vis}{no}{yes but autofail without vis}{no}{n/a}, which is what I proposed before. If you can find another consistent set, that's great.
Now why are you relaxed for that Ritual?
--{Mastery}
Does Mastery make a spell relaxed?
--{No, mastering a Formulaic spell does not make it relaxed and there are no exceptions for Ritual.}
Can a Ritual then be relaxed even if I have no Mastery?
--{No, its "stress die" may botch}
Can the Troupe decide that combat is relaxed?
--{No, "stress die" always has the same meaning.}
What die do I roll for relaxed non-mastered stress die?
--{That does not exists.}
How about:
Now why are you relaxed for that Ritual?
--{Because the circustances are relaxes and the raw vis doesn't add botch dice due to mastery}
Does Mastery make a spell relaxed?
--{no, but it removed the botch dice that would lead to a chance to botch and hence stress}
Can a Ritual then be relaxed even if I have no Mastery?
--{Yes, its botch dice may be removed by other means}
Can the Troupe decide that combat is relaxed?
--{No, this is the archetypal stressed circustances}
What die do I roll for relaxed non-mastered stress die?
--{stress with no botch dice; if these are removed due to cautious sorcerer, gold cord, or so on}
After seeing the exact phrasing of the quote, i dont know. Darn thing could have said either stressful or stressdie but no... I simply dont think i can have an exact position on that part of RAW. It is 100% ambigously written. Personally i would lean towards reading it as "stress[ful]" as otherwise it potentially contradicts p6 and p7 but that´s 4/5 interpretation and linguistic analysis based on insufficient information.
Standard rule here has been that relaxed casting, no botchrisk, stressful(for whatever reason) equals botchrisk.
That makes for simple rules and works fine. And if the above is supposed to be "stressful" then it´s also 100% RAW but cant say for sure.
Uhm... You´re not making a shred of sense. The only thing you prove is your own confusion i think? Because i certainly cant tell what you´re even claiming that i´m wrong about.
Nowhere does it say to my knowledge that Ritual spells can always botch. Nowhere does it say that it can never be relaxed.
And your first line, i dont even know what you´re arguing against. The quote from me, your line just has no relevance to it that i can figure out. Not to mention that i agree with it.
Then why are you arguing about it? On all statements I've put forth in this thread I've always said it is the SG call for what is a relaxed situation. Do you as a player get to decided what is a relaxed situation? If not then you are presenting a strawman argument. Would a normal SG allow a relaxed casting when hanging by a ledge with 2 fingers?
You first point is another strawman. You are not relaxed because you have a spell mastered and no one in this thread and especially me has said that. You are relaxed if the SG rules you are in a relaxed situation.
You conveniently left out that a spell cast in a relaxed situation that is mastered is cast with a stress die but no chance of botching ( AM5 pg 81). You may continue to ignore that part of the rules for your argument but it does not mean it is not there.
Why are you relaxed in a ritual spell
--{the SG said it was a relaxed situation}
Do you have the ritual mastered?
No - Then it is a stress die with a chance to botch.
Yes - Then it is a stress die with no chance to botch.
Hmm. So if we will adopt your preffered "stress[ful]" interpretation, this would mean that when casting an un-mastered ritual spell under relaxes circumstances there would be no risk of botch, no botch dice. And that would mean that the key sentence will mean something like "Because ritual spells involve so much raw power and are complex, needing to weave together so many components - you have a chance to do exceptionally well, but no chance to fail horribly". I'm sorry, but that... doesn't feel right.
That's not a crushing argument against your position, but still, personally - I find such a rule strange. Perhaps that's what I'm leaning towards the other interpretation. Even with "stress[die]", the "rituals use stress die" rule is basically in the same spirit under your interpretation.
I think that when the writers write "stress", or even "stress die" or "stress roll" or so on, they usually have in mind "stressful circumstances". The above ambiguity is, I think, due to this confusion.
You put it much better than I ever did. I have the same concerns you do. It doesn't feel...right. I will say that the example provided for situations that use a stress die but can't boch are those where the task can be done again, or it isn't the final result. In a ritual, while it may be possible to do it again, you will waste a substantial resource (vis) if the ritual actually fails.
I try and really put myself into the shoes of my characters. And I can comfortably say that were I a magus, who knew a ritual spell (with or without any level of mastery), that I would NOT be relaxed in handling a precious resource, vis, used to power that ritual and make my desires manifest. I could believe that someone who spent years handling it (mastery) or who had a consistent and cautious methodology toward magic (Cautious Sorcerer) or had a good friend who was adept at spotting your mistakes (familiar) before you even made them or some combination of the three, might have little or nothing to be concerned about.
I think we tend to lose focus and say it's about the game and the mechanics. No, it's about the story. What is a more interesting story? As with all things, YSMV.
Edit: I had previously written would be relaxed, when I meant would not be relaxed.
Exactly, that's why I said biggest obstacle. As soon as you answer Mastery you're screwed. And if it is SG call, then different SG can give opposite answers since it is not defined in RAW.
It is not ignored, it is meaningless. That argument cannot be invoked to declare an action "relaxed", otherwise the 2-finger ledge hold would also be relaxed. I think we cleared that bit earlier.
I still feel there's something inconsistent in there:
So, I am relaxed when I cast this mastered ritual, yes?
--{Yes, you are relaxed}
And it's not because it is mastered?
--{No, it's not}
Can I be relaxed even if I haven't mastered it, then?
--{No, you cannot}
Wait, you just told me it wasn't because it was mastered, why it is then?
But hey, if you don't see it it's okay.
Seems this is going around in circles. IMS and with how I read the rules a ritual can very much be cast relaxed, just like formulaics. That means you get a stress die, with no botch dice. But if the ritual isn't Mastered you then get one extra botch die for each pawn of vis (and I think for every unfriendly aura, but that might be a house rule). Normally resulting in rather a lot of botch dice.
If you have the ritual Mastered the botch dice for using vis and foreign auras are eliminated.
Here is something might make things understanding and how I look at it.
Standard botch mechanics is a die that explodes on a 1 and has chance to botch on a 0 with number of botch depending on circumstance (default 1 but foreign aura/vis, high stress vs some stress, virtues, mastery, etc can modify.). The concept of the stress die is that you can succeed spectacularly and you can also have your hand slip and botch. Its label is deception. It probably should be called Exploding die or Risk Die.
In certain circumstances, you roll stress without any chance of botching. Some of these explicit cases including aging rolls, strength of the effect of certain PeVi spells, mastered spells.
In certain circumstances you roll with greater than normal. Stress can determine the number of botch dice that you have. If you are doing a ritual while your grogs are defending the doors to the building you are in to keep people out while you finish, you will probably have +2-3 botch more than the standard 1 + x for vis + y for aura.
So the fact that something is stress die does not inherently mean under stress.
This is just to establish that just because something uses a stress die does not mean it is automatically stressful. It is important to understand that concept for this argument.
[hr][/hr]
Rituals spells because of their complex nature and many components have a risk of a botch. Even if you are totally calm and relaxed, your hand can slip. It is not a factor of being under stress, it is a matter that because of the complexity, there is greater risk (understood or not) in casting it. I type at about 50-60 words per minute with few errors when I am in calm situation and get going in my flow but there is a chance my finger slips and I mistype a word. When typing, this is trivial, when casting a spell with vis, I could see how this could be very explosive if it was not correctable or adjusted for.
It is not that I am under stress, it is that precision with complexity is important and slight changes in that precision can get better results than normal or explosing messup.
This is what gives the ritual its stress die and extra botch dice for foreign aura/vis.
Mastery is just that, you have mastered the spell. You have a trained, innate, muscle memory experience with the rituals (or formulaic spell) that if there are no distractions, you will not have any disasters. You might not be so perfect as to get spectacular results but everything will be close to right.
Cooking is example, there are some recipes that I have done over and over for years that the final result is always tasty even if it isn't always perfect (a few minutes off in cooking, spice was off 1/4 pinch) but it will never come out tasting horrible. Until I master a recipe, there are chances of major mistakes, but one I have, I get it right every time unless there is a distraction or stress (phone rings, knock at the door etc).
This is why Rituals (which are like formulaic spells outside the explicit changes like die or amount of fatigue (hey, any spell that is at least 1 hour to cast should impose minimum level of fatigue) use stress die when cast normally and the sentence about no botch dice when mastered and calm applies.
I don't expect this will say anyone fixed in their view on the matter to one side or the other. This is just explanation of how I see it. Once you get off the fixation that 'stress' in the title of the mechanic means it is stress, suddenly a world of interpretation opens up.
As I said, it does not make sense that authors of the game intended for Aegis of the hearth to be major yearly botch chance.
Except no one but you has insisted that Mastery equals relaxed. Which goes back to the strawman.
Are you going to tell me that you have never played in games with the same system but different house rules?
Again, no one but you has said that mastery equals relaxed except to support your strawman argument. If you can not expect that an SG can make a call on what is a relaxed situation and what is not then how can you play Ars when most of the rules are up to the SG and troupe? So please stop with the absurd examples that you insist will happen because SGs can not reasonably decide if a situation is relaxed or not.
If you read my posting:
I too say that Ritual spells can be cast in calm situations with mastery because I do not equate using a stress die to meaning under stress. I don't say master means always relaxed because let's face it, you could be trying to cast a healing ritual to heal incap wound on the mage with the spell to teleport you all out of the building that the mundane mob is getting ready to swarm. That is definately stressful situation where mastery only removes stress dice. Do the same ritual in the infirmary at the covenant after a good night's rest and a nice breakfast and mastery means no botch dice.
Stress die is NAME/TITLE of mechanic. Call it a complexity die, call it risk die, call it a chance die. Change the name of the die mechanic and suddenly all the arguments about rituals always being stressful goes away.
A stress die is perhaps best called a chance die: Chance of spectacular success, chance of spectacular failure. Then you can clarify: when not under stress, the chance die can not result in spectacular failure.
It seems that what is in a name is important here because that is what lead to all the confusion.
Not really. The argument revolves around the interpretation of the key sentence "The magnitude of Ritual spells, and the need to incorporate many elements, mean that they are always cast using a stress die". The argument is that it makes no thematic sense for the stated reasons to result in a chance for spectacular success but not for a spectacular failure, and conversly that it does make thematic sense for the first part of that sentence to be counted as a stressful situation, so that the most reasonable reading of that sentence is "[Casting a ritual is stressful], which means that they are always casting using a stress die".
Change that to "...using a chance die", and the argument stays as it is. You may not find it convincing, but that's another matter. I'm not entirely certain I'm convinced myself, but I do think it's at least as good a case as the other interpretation.
Meh. As long as Rituals are relaxed under the same circumstances, be them mastered or not, I don't care which circumstances the SG chooses. And even then, it's not my saga that's inconsistent.
What keeps drawing me back to this discussion[1], besides the fact that I have email notifications of new posts is this discussion being centered on Aegis of the Hearth. Also, something is left unspoken here, a botch on its own isn't overly dangerous, it's the double botch that is the true danger; it's what can cause someone to be thrown into twilight.
What is the real purpose of Aegis of the Hearth? It's not to protect Magi, as they have Parma Magica. It's there to protect the covenfolk, it's there to allow the Magi not have to deal with ankle-biters, the weak creatures who can suddenly appear cause all kinds of havoc, but no lasting damage. So the issue, when focusing on the Aegis is really about how powerful such an Aegis needs to be. I would say, by and large it needs to be 4th magnitude, and no more to resolve the anlke-biter problem. To avoid the risk of Twilight for a 4th magnitude Aegis[2], one needs any of the following: Gold cord of 3, Cautious Sorcerer, Mastery Score of 3, or Mercurion Magic and Mastery of 1. Even without those things, the probablilty of double botching is extremely low. It's been so long since I've done probability, that I'll leave it as an exercise for someone else with a deeper understanding of probability to do.
[1] This discussion has moved beyond RAW and is now really in an area of thematics, and what fits a saga best.
[2] A 4th magnitude Aegis is reasonably cast by 1 individual and can achieve a decent level of penetration[3] on their own. My Bonisagus in the now defunct Phoenix game can get a casting total of 31: Rego 9 + Vim 5 +Sta 2 + Aura 5 +Philo 4 + Artes Lib 5+1 A rego or a vim specialist could likely do much better. Note he has flawless magic of 1, and removes 1 botch die off the top. In two seasons he could learn mastery abilities to bring that up to 1 botch die, and his CT to 32. And the only thing he's "optimized" for in this situation is Flawless Magic.
[3] Presumes that penetration is necessary, if your saga HRs that Wards and Aegis don't have to penetrate, then this is even simpler, and the need for reducing botch dice above and beyond from Wizard's Communion for high level Aegis is removed.
The way I look at it is:
Are actions that use a stress die inherently non-relaxed?
- no
Can you be relaxed when casting a non-mastered formulaic spell or ritual spell? - yes
Does this remove the botch dice inherent in casting the spell (1 + vis used)? - no
If I am relaxed and I have at least one mastery in the spell can I cast either type of spell without botch dice? - yes
When am I relaxed? - When the SG allows that I am but never in combat nor when I am getting extra botch dice from circumstances. I can usually be assumed to be relaxed when doing offscreen routine casting such as replacing the covenant's utility circle spells or renewing the Aegis of the Hearth.
If I am not relaxed what is the benefit of mastery? - it reduces the botch dice by one per level and as always it increases the casting total by one per level and grants the specific mastery abilities I have chosen.
What if my SG disagrees? - Someone else is casting the Aegis from now on, I have a wife and child to look after.
Not sure why you quoted ezzelino since he said that a mastered spell can be cast without botch die in non-stressful situations. Which does not equal having a spell mastered makes any casting of it a relaxed situation.
I'll help you out. If a ritual is cast as part of a RP session then a stress die is used and there is a chance of botch. If it is cast in a non-RP session then it is relaxed and no chance of botch if mastered. Example: During a story a mage casts a healing ritual on a companion. Not relaxed situation. Example 2) Troupe hand waves casting of the AoH at mid winter. Relaxed casting.
So very simple. Is the mage that is casting it in a story where they will receive adventure experience? If so then always a stress die and a chance to botch. If not then it can be relaxed.
Hard and fast rules. People may go back to casting the Aoh and Bountiful Harvest spells again without resorting to a poor player being forced to take the Mercurian Magic virtue.
That is an interesting answer. The botch creates a story but stories only happen during RP sessions. Botches are not a penalty but a chance for roleplay. And spending xp to master it is another way to roleplay.
This sounds very reasonable - and by the books, too. Maybe we don't need to summon the line editor - high level Ritual, don't try unless relaxed - to calm a nerdstorm, after all. 
Cheers