Spell Review: Snapping the Threads of Vim

[dc444 (nullsettings)]

I think you misunderstood Jonathan Parsons. Dispelling Parma is its own class of PeVi, it is not included when dispelling only Hermetic Vim effects. It is included in spells which dispell any sort of magic like Winds of Mundane Silence.

[Tellus]

@rgd20

...and of course, as this is personal, it can be placed permanently in the Familiar Bond for no warping

Actually, thinking about it. You appear to be confusing Talisman and Familiar effects.

• Talismans can affect the owner with R: Personal effect, but offer no protection from Warping (ArM5, p. 98)
• Familiar Bonds offer Warping-free effects, but all effects must (ArM5, p. 105):

1. Affect either the magus or the familiar. So not a spell affecting either of them
2. Have R: Touch.

• neither of which is true for the proposed effect.

[Arthur]

ArM5 p.105 (The Bound Familiar, 3rd paragraph):

The magus and the familiar are magically linked. Each serves as an Arcane Connection to
the other. Neither needs to overcome the other’s magic resistance in order to affect them with a spell or magical ability.

ArM5 p.105 (Empowering the Bond, 7th paragraph):

For the use of effects enchanted into the familiar bond, the maga and familiar are always considered to be touching one another.

So a power enchanted into the familiar bond would bypass magic resistance, although it would need to use R:Touch.

[Vortigern]

@Tellus

Affect either the magus or the familiar. So not a spell affecting either of them

(emphasis added)

@ArM5 pg 157

The Individual target for a Vim spell can refer to either an individual spell, or an individual object or person, and similarly for Group. If the target is an object or person, the Vim spell will affect any suitable magic affecting that person, not just one spell.

The effect Target is the person/thing itself, not the spell. Then the spell is affected per the rules for the Vim Base Individual. Which was brought up earlier in the thread.

@Arthur

For the use of effects enchanted into the familiar bond, the maga and familiar are always considered to be touching one another.

So a power enchanted into the familiar bond would bypass magic resistance, although it would need to use R:Touch.

Interesting re: Touch. I believe you have a point there.

[WilliamEx]

@dc444

I think you misunderstood Jonathan Parsons. Dispelling Parma is its own class of PeVi, it is not included when dispelling only Hermetic Vim effects. It is included in spells which dispell any sort of magic like Winds of Mundane Silence.

Wish you were right but it was confirmed that Perdo Parma uses the specific type such as Vim guideline.

W

[dc444 (nullsettings)]

Per the spell you are talking about, Revoke the Protection of Bonisagus, on page 62 of Contested Isle:

This spell disrupts the Parma Magica, a specific type of Hermetic magic.

Clearly a separate type of magic from "Hermetic Vim" according to that quote. Yes, it is a Perdo Vim spell but it doesn't affect anything beyond the Parma.

[Vortigern]

@WilliamEx

Wish you were right but it was confirmed that Perdo Parma uses the specific type such as Vim guideline.

W

It does use that guideline, the difference however is that it is a different type/category of effect.

@ArM5 pg 160

Dispel effects of a specific type with a level less than or equal to the level + 4 magnitudes of the Vim spell + a stress die (no botch). A specific type could be Hermetic Terram magic, or Shamanic spirit control magic. A magus must have some knowledge of a type of magic (although not necessarily ability to use it) to invent a spell to affect it. All Hermetic magi have some knowledge of all Hermetic magic.

The "dispel Vim magic" effect type is "all Hermetic Vim magic" and that is accurate. Parma Magica however is not "Hermetic Vim Magic" it is a unique and individual magical ability that doesn't fall into other categories. Therefore it takes a specific "dispel Parma" design to create a "specific type" formulaic dispel that affects Parma Magica using the same guideline.

[WilliamEx]

You are correct. Sorry for the confusion. In this case, it seems that a specific type of magic requires Parma to be its unique type and does not get to be lumped with Vim.

Just not used to seeing such a narrow use of that guideline. Didn't think you could go more narrow than a specific form...

W

[temprobe]

The difficulty of having a Vim dispel with duration is that, as a continuing Vim effect that dispels Vim effect of spells of higher level than itself, it would dispel itself in the second round. It's nice as a sponstaneous effect to block an again and allow you to get inside an aegis quickly or something similar, but it's not an alternative to not getting your parma magica breached in the first place.

[callen]

@Tellus

Affect either the magus or the familiar. So not a spell affecting either of them

That doesn't really follow. One or both of them must be the target, and that's fine as Vortigern pointed out. Affecting something else is another step. But it's fine if targeting one of them has an affect on other things. We see this with the sharp claws and aura of fire in the core book. So there is no problem with this plan, so long as the right control is set up (magus controls effect on familiar, vice versa; only mutual effects can be controlled by sunrise/sunset to be constant).

[callen]

The trick is to have it hit a particular type of thing. As long as it doesn't hit dispelling effects or all of Vim or all of magic, you avoid this problem.

[The_Fixer]

@Arthur

The magus and the familiar are magically linked. Each serves as an Arcane Connection to
the other. Neither needs to overcome the other’s magic resistance in order to affect them with a spell or magical ability.

How come I didn't remember this?
Seems like a great way to search for a Breakthrough allowing to bypass MR if you've got an AC to your target
Given the temporary nature of Faerie familiars, this would probably best be tried by Merinitae magi

[Arkhaic]

It's probably related to the magical link between Magum and Familiar. Certamen has a sort of similar thing, where the "free" spell bypasses MR (presumably because, as revealed in Hedge Magic, certamen involves your spirits clashing with each other).