Spells That Reduce Might

Can a Might Reduction spell like Demon's Eternal Oblivion be cast with a duration other than momentary? I'm guessing it would have no effect. However what about a magi item with Continual power, say target Room - would that reduce the Might of a demon for as long as they are in the room?

cj x

From the examples of other damage dealing (Grip of the Choking Hand spells one could argue that it would happen repeatedly. They lose their might each round. Of course with even a duration of diam and a base of 1 all but the most powerful creatures would die if they fail to remove the spell. For balance purposes the GM might want to limit it to concentration.

Demon's Pyre - 5
T: Ind, Range: Sight, D: Diam
The targeted creature loses 3 infernal might per round. This loss is permanent. If reduced to 0 might the demon is destroyed. Similar versions exist for the other three kinds of might.

Alternatively it could be a temporary might reduction. Not particularly useful except as a demonstration of power. Or to hide creatures.

All true. I'd also add to simply allow it as a ritual


All true. I'd also add to simply allow it as a ritual


Due to it being Perdo, I'd rather avoid this sort of effect.
Yes, the Grip of Choking Hands does have a template for how to handle this, but in general Perdo spells ahouldn't be designed with Duration.

The relevant reference is ArM5, p. 112, the text about Duration in general and Duration: Momentary.
(Technically, Grip of Choking Hands possibly violates the description of duration referenced above, but presumably it damages the target's ability to breathe, rather than sucking out the fatigue directly).

I hate might reduction with the burning fury of.... oh, wait, that's Multiple Casting. Can I hate two things with the burning fury of a thousand suns? Anyway, as to the thread's question...


Doing the concentration-thingie is also a fine ruling, of course, and the rules are vague enough that the original post's spell can be approved by a generous group, too. But I agree with Tellus that the best course of action is to deny such options entirely.

I don't mind might reduction, I think it's good. When you do it to Faeries or Magical creatues you don't get the vis. As a means of dealing with the infernal, well, I do want one tool for dealing with a pesky demon.
Grip of the Choking Hand I would explain away the fact that it doesn't actually kill, it only renders unconscious. Of course, someone could easily kill an unconscious person, but that's pretty clearly premeditated murder and not combat or even self-defense and brings up a bunch of other things to be used against someone who behaves in this manner.

We seem to be disagreeing a lot on gamestyle lately :slight_smile:

I think might reduction is bad for the setting. In terms of gameplay, the stacking nature of the effect means it can whittle down even Mighty creatures too quickly to my taste. But it allows for nice team-work and gradual-takedown options, so it ain't all bad.

The problem is rather that it diminishes the setting. Reducing Stellatus to a non-magical lizard isn't fun, it's an insult to his grand Magical nature. And ridding the world of the Infernal, one demon at a time, is an absurd power even God perhaps doesn't have (he banished them to hell, he didn't obliterate them from existence!).

I would much rather have the PCs bind the pesky demon, ensnaring it in a magical circle deep below their castle. (To be broken in the future by a devious SG, for sure.) I would much rather PeVi would diminish the faerie spirit's ability to use magic (his Might Pool?), or the dragon's Magic Resistance, than to make these wonderful Mythical creatures mundane.Or even banish a demon back to the Infernal Realm ("go to hell!"). I think these options are much cooler, much more Mythic, much more in line with the setting and better for long-term gameplay, than the option of rendering supernatural beings mundane.


Serf's Parma, removing a Demon's might sends it back to hell.

I'm not sure where your getting the idea that removing a magic creature's might makes it mundane. IMO when the might is gone, so is the creature.

If i remember correctly, when reaching might 0 :
Magic creatures become mundane
Demons and Faeries are destroyed

EDIT : And with might reduction spells a magus out of the apprenticeship can destroy the king of the black forest in one round, good job to the archmagi of Durenmar, so yes it need to be nerfed ^^

I'd love to see where this is cited. It's not that I don't believe it, but I can say that I've never read it and it doesn't jive with some other things that I understand. A magical creature's most useful feature is it's vis, and I firmly believe if you destroy a creature's might you destroy the vis, although this might just be a common House Rule and I'm making it implicit in my games and understanding of might.

Are you talking about the King Fir of the Black Forest?
An apprentice (or magus just past gauntlet) capable of so destroying a Might 90 Faerie in one round is impressive indeed. As I've sometimes said elsewhere, pics or it didn't happen. Phillipus Niger, ostensibly the muscle of Durenmar can't even penetrate that Faerie's resistance.

Yes you destroy the vis, that is certain, for the rest i ll check that tonight when i am home ^^

For the incredible young magus wait a minute i have to translate him from french ^^

Considering magical creatures in terms of "usefulness" instead of them being a superb eagle, the stag king of the forest or a learned owl removes much of the mystic they have. At least for me :frowning: And well, a magical owl is much more than a flying bunch of vis. At least IMS...

Certainly, and stripping it's might, whether it kills the magical owl or renders it mundane, whichever side of the argument, is a huge waste of resources. But let's not forget the origins of the franchise. Vis hunting was part of the genesis of Ars Magica. You don't go monster hunting to get their treasure, the monsters were the treasure, or contained the treasure in the form of Vis.

ok, remember I did not play that magus, I did it for fun ^^
If my math is wrong please tell me :slight_smile:

Faerybane of Flambeau vs King Fir of the Black Forest

Faerybane of Flambeau
Stamina = 4
Quickness = 2

Focus [Destroying faery power] (minor)
Puissant Perdo (free)
Puissant Vim (minor)
Skilled parens (minor)
Spell mastery (minor)
Puissant Penetration (minor)
Puissant Finesse (minor)
Puissant Theorie de la magie (minor)
Potent magic [Destroying faery power] (minor)
Good stamina (minor)
Self confident (minor)

Faery's Eternal Oblivion lvl5 : 5 (Pentration, Fast casting, Multiple casting, Initiative 2 fois)
Penetration (Vim) : 5+2
Finesse (Fast casting) : 4+2
Magic Theory (Vim) : 5+2

Perdo : 10+3
Vim : 10+3
110 xp for arts

The fight

Stamina 4 + (Perdo 10+3)*2 + Vim 10+3 + Mastery 5 + potent magic 11 = 57 + 1d(6) = 65 (Fast cast = 55)
He has a pentration multiplier of x2 story obtained.
Pentration = 60 + (Penetration 8 + Mastery 5)*2 = 86 (Fast cast = 76)
This magus goes to fight the King Fir of the Black Forest with two of his grogs.
Faerybane 8 + 1d(6) = 14
Grog1 2 + 1d(6) = 8
Grog2 2 + 1d(6) = 8
King Fir of the Black Forest ? + 1d(6) = ? + 6
Magus cast FEO5 and spend two confidence points on the first casting, King Fir of the Black Forest loose 25 points of faery might. 65 left.
Magus attempt to interrupt grog1 : quickness 2 + Finesse 7 + 1d(6) = 15, success !
Magus cast FEO5, King Fir of the Black Forest loose 25 points of faery might. 40 left.
Grog1 attacks and miss.
Magus attempt to interrupt grog2 : quickness 2 + Finesse 7 - 3 + 1d(6) = 12, success !
Magus cast FEO5, King Fir of the Black Forest loose 25 points of faery might. 15 left.
Grog2 attacks and miss.
Magus attempt to interrupt the King Fir of the Black Forest : quickness 2 + Finesse 7 - 6 + 1d(6) = 9, success !
Magus cast FEO5, King Fir of the Black Forest loose 25 points of faery might. And he die.

If you leave him a few years he will not need the pentration multiplier ^^

I don't believe the character exists. The character and your scenario rests an way too many favorable assumptions to the character's purpose. Any competent gamer can develop a character to spec. I certainly wouldn't accept such a character into a saga I run, or at least I'd need some powerful convincing as to why his parens made him so...

Well, your example demonstrates 1) multiple casting based on the score is problematic and 2) fast casting offensive spells is generally going to yield substandard results.

Faerybane's initiative is 13? He rolled a 6? Are you presuming all rolls are average of 6 (that's reasonable)? How do you get 5+6=13? Where does the five come from? Finesse is not added to initiative for magi, so the best I can see his initiative being is 8. A minor quibble that doesn't impact the scenario you laid out, except he can't fast cast and cast at equivalent initiative points. Although you point out something I need to do for my fast casting HR, that you have to respond to opposing events, or make a hard or very hard awareness roll to pay attention to what everyone else on your side is doing (in other words, you can pay attention to the enemy, and trust your team is doing what they're supposed to do, or you micromanage your side, which means you're paying more attention to your forces than the enemy).

But the moment you enter his forest, the entire Party is lamed, and the wolves come to gobble them up...

I never said it would be a perfect 100% chance success but that character has a shot and if he were 125 years old like another one i know (Phiphi i am looking at you) that damn faery wouldn't stand a chance ^^

The point i am making is that contrary to normal damaging spells Might strippers don't have a defensive equivalent, like soak, so it's easy with a lot of low level spells to destroy really powerful creatures. Most creatures being under the 50 Might level.

In our saga we houseruled that every creature with a Might has a Might Soak that applies to all Might Stripper spells, that might Soak is calculated as follow :
[tr][td]Might Soak[/td][td]0[/td][td]5[/td][td]10[/td][td]15[/td][td]20[/td][td]25[/td][td]30[/td][td]35[/td][td]40[/td][/tr][/table]
Like this you need a level 45 might sripper for the king but it doesn't change anything for lowlife fairies.

As for fast cast and multicast you gain 1 fast cast each time you take the spell casting power same for multicast.

The core book doesn't mention anything about creatures dying when their Might Score reaches zero. At least not that I'm familiar with. So the simplest interpretation is that, just as the rules say, creatures whose Might Score is zero are.... left with a Might Score of zero.

That said, supplements may change that for those sagas that actually read that supplement and use that rule from it. RoPTD says that angels can be killed by Might depletion to negative values (page 21). RoPTI maintains that once a demon's Might has been depleted, "it is dead, gone forever". ROPF maintains that a faerie with depleted Might dies permanently. I don't have access to RoPM, not since "The Big Move Library Decimation" fiasco (don't ask, I won't tell).

Regardless, having a "limp" angel with Might 5 after encountering a magus that depleted his Might Score feels .... anti-Mythic to me. The whole idea of Might Reduction is anathema - you kill the creatures/take their stuff, not reduce how supernatural they are!

I just find the Might Score Reduction to be Not Fun. Especially in its current form, as permanent reduction. I could live with it as a Ritual effect that heals much like wounds do (in the appropriate aura), which kills corporeal creatures and banishes spirits back to their Realm to "heal". Then it basically becomes a torturing device that wounds the magical essence rather than the body, and doesn't really lower the creature's Might Score (only temporarily so, until it heals).

Yeah, I think that's just strongly implied by the core rules.

Fast cast as a mastery ability doesn't add anything to the spell (except for the casting score). It just allows you to cast a spell as an interrupt to an opposing action, as one would with spontaneous magic.

And by RAW, I know the number of copies capable of being cast is equal to the mastery score if multiple casting has been chosen, which is why I said it is problematic. The aforementioned reason is also why I have adopted a rule that treats multiple casting like quick casting or precise casting, you can cast one additional copy each time you select multiple casting.

I mean, if someone wants to play a PeVi specialist who strips might out of creatures, I'm not going to say no, but he's going to be generally reviled unless he's a demon hunter, because he's destroying the vis and/or mystical qualities of a creature if not killing it outright. The point I'm making is that someone relying upon a PeVi specialty to kill creatures is just doing that, and that should also create story consequences. It's the player's character, let him play it, have the troupe discuss the consequences.

Your might soak, granting a 40 soak against might strippers is effectively saying that this creature is better off damaged by mundane means, or other magi who have high penetration in other Arts. I mean it's not hard to make a magus with similar levels of Penetration on Pilum of Fire. What's the soak on that damage going to be like? Certainly not 40.

I know, never said the opposite.

That's what we are doing too, but we do the same with fast cast : you can fast cast the spell once per round per time you took "fast cast".

That I agree with :slight_smile:

Yes but :
1 - some creatures are immune to physical damage
2 - some creatures are immune to some types of physical damage
3 - the creature can escape and come back later once healed (not possible or very hard with PeVi)
With PeVi you need 4 spells to deal with any Might infused creature, that's not true for the rest, there is always a creature you will not be able to deal with 4 ignem spells for exemple.
So that method as it is more widely useful must be less effective than others (for game balance) but as RAW it is more effective :

  • Can kill the creature
  • Reduce her offensive power (less might points, less penetration)
  • Reduce her defensive power (less Magic Resistance)
  • Cannot be healed