Spirit Magic Confusion

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

I'll get to Ward Against the Beasts of Legend further below. First, I'd like to outline my view on spirits.

Mentem

I believe that whenever a text mentions "spirits" in the context of Mentem, it actually means "ghosts/animi", and that the ReMe guideline (ward against spirits) actually means "ward against ghosts". I also believe that my opinion is not necessarily the only correct one, only that it is consistent (and other consistent interpretations may be possible). Let me explain my reasoning.

To quote again RoP:M, p. 100:

However, the term [spirit] confuses two quite distinct phenomena. There are the spirits that were created as such [genii], and the spirits that were created as human but have since ceased to be material beings [animi].

The Core book does not clearly distinguish between the two, which makes interpretation hard. Still, I can sort all Mentem spells into the animus/ghost category:

  • The MuMe guidelines talk about "mind or spirit".

  • There are several spells where "spirit" clearly means animus/ghost: Whispers Through the Black Gate, Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit, Coerce the Spirits of the Night.

  • The ReMe 5 guideline "Control a disembodied spirit" is implemented by Coerce the Spirits of the Night, which targets ghosts.

  • For Vision of the Haunting Spirits it's not clear what kind of spirit is meant. I'd argue that the spell is named similar to Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit, which targets "a ghost or similar spirit" (animus), so that's what was intended. The spell explicitly says that it also targets the spirits of living people, which are also animi. You could argue that it includes both kinds of spirits, I'm just saying it's not a clear case.

  • I believe that Ring of Warding Against Spirits also falls into this category - its description begins with "Only ghosts with current Magic Might ...".

The Core book does also talk about genii, such as disease spirits, and there is a very relevant paragraph on p.184:

The Magic realm also encompasses a wide range of spirits. Some are spirits of natural substances, such as water and fire. These are generally classed with elementals, although there is a difference in that elementals are essentially physical, while spirits of the elements are essentially spiritual. [...] this distinction is only of importance to Hermetic magi deciding which Form to use to affect a creature.

This seems to suggest that e.g. fire elementals are affected by Ignem, while fire spirits are affected by Mentem. However, there is no other evidence to support this. The ward guideline from HoH:S says that ReIg wards against "beings associated with Ignem".

Animal

Now on to Animal: You convinced me that the HoH:S guideline and the core guideline for ReAn are different. I'd prefer that the HoH:S guidelines overrule the guidelines from Core, even if it means that Ward Against the Beasts of Legend does not affect a Salamander of Virtue. I'd like an official clarification on that even better.

Why am I ok with that?

  • Beasts of Virtue are not affected by a Circle of Beast Warding, because they are not "normal beasts", they are magic entities in the bodies of animals.
  • To affect the minds of the many Beasts of Virtue that have Intelligence instead of Cunning, you need Mentem, not Animal. You could still kill it with PeAn, because of it's animal body.

So I'd be prepared to accept that if the rules say that a Salamander of Virtue is aligned with Ignem, then it's more like a fire elemental in an animal body than like an animal, and the Ward Against the Beasts of Legend (based on the HoH:S guideline) would not affect it. The simple rule is that wards targeting beings with Might go by the Form the Might is aligned with. You can still affect its body (and its mind, if it has Cunning) with Animal.

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22

The division between genii and animi was not yet clearly established when the core rulebook was written, so I don't think they could have had it in mind writing the spells or spell guidelines.

As you note, most of the spirit-affecting spells in core specifically say they affect ghosts. But this really doesn't prove anything one way or the other, since spells can be narrower than the guideline they are based on allows, and ghosts are spirits that are associated with Mentem anyway. So no matter if the guidelines refer to spirits, ghosts, or Mentem-associated supernatural beings, ghosts are covered and those spells follow the guidlines.

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23

Yes, I think you can also say that Mentem affects all spirits, and posit a spell Ring of Warding Against All Magical Spirits, like @dc444 did with his example magus in this thread:

Both the broader and the narrower definition of spirits affected by Mentem work just fine. My reasoning was that I don't want to have three Forms that work against a spirit (Element, Mentem, Vim), and that IMO Mentem is already the strongest Form, even with the narrower definition.

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24

How about TMRE p.86???

Making a spirit solid is Muto Mentem with a Form requisite. This is usually Corpus, but may be Animal or Herbam for nature spirits. Elemental spirits can appear as a portion of their native Element, or in an appropriate human or animal shape.

This is clearly referencing more than just ghosts when it says "spirit" as it's explicitly talking about nature spirits and elemental spirits as well. And regardless of the type, it's a Mentem effect.

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25

Good point. TMRE p. 68 seems to follow the "Mentem can also affect the “bodies” of noncorporeal beings" rule.

I just found a relevant statement in this document:

There are clarifications of the core Mentem guidelines on pages 66-70 of Houses of Hermes: Societates.

That seems pretty official.

It seems that @dc444 was correct when he said:

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26

Thanks? :wink: (Not sure if you read the first page.)

The thing is, none of those rules disallow spells like Ward Against the Beasts of Legend. We've known 100% since the publishing of the core book that the listed guidelines are an incomplete list, that vanilla Hermetic magic has more available guidelines. Meanwhile, the core book explicitly says the bodies of spirits are covered by Mentem and we have examples like this that show the bodies of spirits are covered by Mentem.

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27

I did read the first page, I just didn't make the connection. Thank you for taking the time to compile that and for making it available to everyone!

I'm aware that the rules do not disallow that, I was very careful to say that I'm only laying out my preferred interpretation.

Let's agree that Mentem can affect the “bodies” of noncorporeal spirits. Then I'd arrive at these rules for Beasts of Virtue:

  • The body of a Beast of Virtue is affected by Animal.
  • The mind of a Beast of Virtue is affected by Mentem if it has Intelligence, by Animal if it has Cunning.
  • A Beast of Virtue is warded against by the Form with which it is associated.

For spirits, it would be:

  • The "body" of a noncorporeal spirit is affected by Mentem.
  • The body of a corporeal spirit is affected by the Form that matches its body best.
  • The mind of a spirit is affected by Mentem if it has Intelligence, or by the same form as its body if it has Cunning.
  • A spirit is warded against by the Form with which it is associated.
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28

I am fine with this clarification. It has the merit to keep the core book spells working, it is consistent with later publications and the only downside is that 3 forms can affect a target instead of 2 and it is only a minor consequence.

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