Spring 1220: Announcements and Decisions

OOC: with Companions having the capacity to be present Constantine would have indicated Father Augustus was present and indicated him in the room, rather than mentioning him as a friend.

Please assume that Augustus is present, and is holding his thoughts to himself for now. He has certainly been recognised

"Very true Aquarian" replies Constantine. "We may find the casting is in peril. Our hubris is already high in the assumption that those inhabitants will not mind their environment being so radically changed, and that if they survive the casting of the spell that they will not be terribly hostile. "
"In truth I had assumed the area was desolate of intelligent life. "

AL: Atlantis: 1D10+9 = [3]+9 = 12

"I'm not entirely sure that will be a problem," Duncan says, speaking up for the first time. "According to what credible legends I've been able to retrieve - and admittedly they're few and far between - the land your people inhabit is not the site of sunken Atlantis - at least not the site that we've located. The place I've identified as where Atlantis is sunk is the confluence of no fewer than five ley lines out in the Atlantic Ocean. Now I haven't been able to determine with any accuracy where the current home of your people is," he gives a nod to Aquarian. "But I understand it's not where my brother and I found the ruins of Atlantis."

The location of New Atlantis:

OOC: Frankly, I put sunken Atlantis it out in the Atlantic Ocean so that it would be far away from land and make for more interesting stories rather than having it just another island off the coast. I was thinking of the islands in the mid-Atlantic, only a little farther north (but in the Gulf current so relatively warm). FWIW, I've also posited that the land around Atlantis is shallower than would otherwise be the case in that area of the Atlantic, almost as if there used to be a larger land mass around there. So please don't assume that modern geographic facts about the Atlantic are correct.

Atlantean tilts his head and chews his lip for a second. "Still, we need to consider the possibility that even if it is not my people who are there, there might be some for of intelligent peoples already there. One does not plan to fail, but fail to plan, after all, and it is a situation we should consider."

"Its sunken and underwater and far from human settlement. I doubt demons or Fae will be pre-existing although they could follow quickly. Humans are right out, and I don't think Divine settlements are even a thing. There are probably some local magical creatures, but actually raising the land will probably chase them away. If I had to guess there will be a few ghosts. The worst case scenario is we disturb something something powerful like a water dragon. Intelligent cultures of magical creatures are quite rare. Its a possibility and we should scout the place some, but I think it will be mostly desolation. Its possible what Atlantis sinking was the outside perception of a Regio splintering off. We might very well end up with your city as neighbors."

Atantian raises his hands to his shoulders. "If you will, but it never hurts to make plans for if your assumptions are wrong."

Haestus waits for a pause then answers Aquarian, "I agree, I won't hurt to check first. Dobran and I can help with underwater scouting if intellego from the surface does not suffice."

Simon had spent most of the council session meditating. He was perhaps among the youngest of the magi assembled in the room, but he appeared as their elder. Like most man in his twilight years, wrinkles and grey may adorn his face, as many testaments of past laughter or tears. If not for the stigmata on his skin, glowing mystical symbols that were slowly shifting as his thoughts wandered. Suddenly, he smiled as he thought:

"More often than not, the truth is not what it appears to be. Anyone entering this room at this moment would be dumbfounded to learn that we are all approximately the same age."

However, the conversation was moving on, and he wanted to be heard:

"Fellow magi, and archmagi. I agree that we should delay the decision on how the land shall be ruled until after we have explored it. Perhaps, however I should let you know where I stand. Some of you have mentioned that we should rule over the land as nobles do here in Europe, and I firmly disagree. This ... system is so unjust! It is designed so that the powerful take advantage of the weak; either by the force of arms, in our case, eventually, by our magic."

The Criamon suddenly stops, interrupted by a violent bout of cough, which eventually subsides.

"History repeats itself, cycle after cycle, this is inevitable. However, we are fortunate enough that in this one, we can lean of the experience of our ancestors. In my apprenticeship, perhaps as you did, I learned of Rome, Athens, Corinth, and many more. For a while, at least, before the succumbed to strife, to the rise of tyrants and emperors, they were governed by citizens, tfree men. It is my deepest belief, that Atlantis should be governed this way."

After unfolding a parchment he had kept near his seat, he says:

"Before we do raise the island, there is something that I want all of you to hear, words that the wise Plato once wrote about. Excuse me, as I would probably not render them justice as this great man would certainly have, but let me try nonetheless:

[i]"For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them.

However, the Atlanteans became corrupt as:

...when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. [/i]

Let us heed this warning, so that our doesnt have the same fate."

OOC: Yes this is a copy/paste from wikipedia. I though that would be relevant :slight_smile:

"Powerful words" replies Constantine. "However I do not accept the point you have made, as you have not illustrated how we should govern. You have just said not to rule as the Order traditionally has, supported by rhetoric, and offered no other mechanics by which we should resolve issues. "
"I still believe we are better placed to remain a council of peers, and rule as though the entire expanse is our own. To rule as Magi. The size and condition of the island is unlikely to change that, as we have heard from very knowledgeable people. Yes, the plan may change, but to have no plan at all? Well that point has been made. "

Haestus faces Simon. "What exactly do you mean by unjust? Is it just that an apprentice or a mundane has some right to my magical power? I say nay. The hermetic oligarchy we are proposing is is not the same as the petty nobles that rule, for we have a vested interest in the long term well being of the people we invite to our new realm. As we live longer than petty nobles we need long term stability and peace for our studies. Warfare such as nobles crave are a detriment to our power, thus a realm for magi will be less chaotic than the lands we leave behind."

Simon peers into Constantine's eyes as he answers him:

"Is that so Quaesitor Constantine ? Can you name me a single covenant that lay claim to a land potentially as large as the Hibernia or Britannia? There are none."

He looks at the others who have expressed the desire to rule over the whole of Atlantis as nobles:

"By doing so, wouldn't that constitute blatant interference with mundanes ? If magi compete with kings and emperors, wouldn't they feel threatened ? What would they then do to ensure that their rule over Europe is not threatened? This could have grave consequences, if not to us who will be far away, to our sodales that will stay in Europe..."

"We can claim enough land for our covenant and to preserve eventual vis sources. We can manage our future covenant as we please too. In fact, I agree to the idea of a democratic council. For the island of Atlantis, however, I think it should be ruled by a set of laws, with all of its inhabitants considered equals; not at the whims of tyrants, as benevolent and good intentioned they might be."

Constantine shakes his head meeting Simon's gaze, "I'm still not sure what point you are making or structure you are proposing Simon."
"Again, we do not know what we will find, or the inhabitable size, so the point on other covenants is moot and not at all what we intend here; as has been said. "
"I'll bite your quip though - Can you name a successful land in or beyond Europe which is ruled successfully by somebody who isn't considered a tyrant or a fool by another party? So your point is doubly moot. "
"I am suggesting a democratic structure for our council so that we go forth with clear boundaries and expectations on communication, for we the Magi undertaking this endeavour. None of the council of magi will act beyond an agreed remit without consideration to the others. Nobody here has said that we will not have laws in the land, and indeed from the outset I have asked the group to work within Hermetic law. By extension and hundreds of years of examples in peripheral code, including your own example - that dictates that we consider the rights and roles of our charges."
"Covenfolk across Europe work within religious, Order, and common law so it seems a logical start. Or detail a better framework?"
"What the council decide to do when we know what we have will again be by agreement and debate."
"Lastly please do not feint to remind me of my title as an implied slight. I am well aware of its burden. "

"Perhaps" Meliai begins "We should begin with an exploration before we raise this land, to determine what size it is and what people, if any, might reside there. Then we can discuss more readily what we will be raising and what to do with it. However I have said I do plan to rise a forest there, and see to it having a magical nature, and I believe it would be well to claim that as covenants lands rather than allow others to claim and despoil it, so I am all for claiming the entirety of what we raise."

"Let me be then be clear, then Constantine. I believe that, in the event that the island of Atlantis prove to be as extensive as it is described in the texts of the Greek philosophers, that the covenant should not claim more land than is really needed, as it would be otherwise greedy. I believe that the covenant council should rule only over magical affairs. I also believe that all of those who come to Atlantis should be equals: men and women, gifted or not, as well as magical beings. Here is the point I was trying to make: we should not rule over them at ALL. In other words, I believe that the rule of law would be preferable to our own."

Simon closes his eyes for a few seconds, trying to recall what he read as an apprentice and then continues:

"Let us not be blind to the lessons of history; there might not be land in Europe in our time that is not ruled by might, but that does not mean that there never were. Let us not forget the lesson of history: in ancient times, citizen of the Republic of Rome were equals. Maybe their laws would be an appropriate starting point for Atlantis. You speak of equality Constantine, yet how can there be equality if some are more equals than others? How can there be equality if we impose our will unto others?"

"Finally, I have the utmost respect for Quaesitors. That was not a slight at all, merely a reminder that they are tasked with upholding the Code of Hermes, not breaking it. In your opinion, at which point does acting as nobles becomes mundane interference ? When war is declare on Atlantis or before? At which point does we deprive bring ruins upon our sodales? When the nobles of Europe dispossess them out of fear because of our actions?"

"I warn you, if we play with fire, we will get burnt."

"Citizens of Rome may have been equals, but they still had an emperor, a Senate far before that. The only time all humans have been equal was during the rule of Saturn on earth, well before the Romans walked the land. If you wish to research how to free him from Tartarus and give power unto him, I am fine with that, but otherwise someone will rule, and I would much rather it be magi then men of war, men of oppression, men who historically have oppressed those who are different, oppressed those of Jewish blood or pagan faiths. Indeed let us not forget the lessons of history, which show that these mundane authorities we are not to interfere with also are not to be trusted."

"You are mistaken Meliai; all men and women are still equals due to their fundamental nature. Everything and everyone that live is a member of the same immortal race. It may not be apparent because we live in an age of increasing strife where and injustice abound, but we shall all be peers in time. But the fact that others are behaving unjustly does not mean we have to. Institutions, like a senate, are required, as you clearly pointed Meliai. Otherwise there would be chaos and anarchy. But are we so wise that we would deny control over their life? Why shouldn't the government be for the people, by the people ?"

Haestus snorts at this ludicrous idea, "Equal?!? Aiden in the stables is worth four of that lazy Cymrych who grows nothing but weeds and rock. And even he is more of a man than that worthless sot who claims noble blood and rules over both. Men are not equal and some blind ideal claiming they are will result in nothing but ruin."

But I digress. We may debate this at a later time once we know the extent of lands we are dealing with. Know this, however. All the lands of Atlantis and all that will be grown, hewn or crafted will come solely from our combined magics and knowledge. By the Code, the Rule of Law that is larger than our council, all that comes from our actions is part of our magical power and may not be taken or diminished without our say."

Meliai, I agree to your idea of exploration. I suggest we begin with intellego spells that allow us to see through water and over great distance, followed up by scouting sites of interest. As I said earlier, Dobran and I are quite at home in an underwater environment, and we can help anyone else that would like to join.

Meliai nods "I would be interested in seeing the lands we are going to raise."

"Agreed, we certainly have a basis to begin. Magnus do you wish to convene the journey? "
"I can assist with Intellego spells for scrying the depths when needed. "

Simon, visibly saddened by Haestus' response, leaning back in his chair:

"Maybe Cymrich's achievements are not outstanding not in this life. But he might have been a magus more powerful than you will ever be in a past cycle. Or... he could be one in one of the cycles to come. Because of that, he deserve our respect."

He will then turn towards the other members of the assembly:

"I can project my consciousness to scout the sunken city, as to make sure there are no potential inhabitants that would be adversely affected by the ritual or ruins that would be best explored before it is performed. If we decide to, I can make it so that we breathe underwater without problem."

"Let's look at reality here. If we have a democracy the masses will just vote for us to slave away forever. They shall demand the deaths of so called heretics. Furthermore, the only laws magi will be bound by is the Code. Sure, over a thousand years ago you had Roman Democracy, but that's not anything we seek to replicate. It was a slave owning, ever warring culture. Unlearned, foolish, short-sighted peasants have no business ruling the lands of magi. "
Artemis nods to Simon
"Acting as nobles over a whole island we called from beneath the sea might set nobles on edge, but the alternatives are worse. A Republic would show an alternative to their rule. It would inherently be a threat. Worse they might not even consider such claims valid, but call it unclaimed land. That would be a clarion call to invade and conquer the new land. Instead we should tell them the land is ours and under our protection. As for Interference, we'll be far from all mundanes. We'll interfere less than any covenant in Europe proper. "

First though we should scout the area to be raised. I have a spell to see through water, although I lack a spell to improve my sight for detail or distance.