Starter saga: proposal and help wanted

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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I'm after some help writing a starter "saga in a box" for brand-new players.

Target audience

This is for a "saga in a box" ready for a new group of players, who have one copy of the ArM5 core book between them and nothing else. It will give a stereotypical (even cliched) introduction to the game.

Saga type

Refounding a lost covenant (one destroyed during the Albigensian Crusade).

General themes

Exploration of the world of Ars Magica and finding (making) your place in it. The magical landscape, Hermetic politics, and the mundane world all play a part.

Tribunal

Provençal. Probably the recently-destroyed Bentalone covenant. (This is the "stereotypical" Ars Magica setting, so let's celebrate it!)

Length

Three or four scenarios (with connections). Descriptions of ongoing issues surrounding the covenant, that the players will have to deal with. Guidance on long-term events for the first few years. It should be everything you need for a dozen or so sessions, and lots of ideas of what to do next.

Scenarios could include (but not be limited to):

  • Finding and exploring a hidden regio in the covenant site
  • Finding and securing an ongoing source of vis in the vicinity
  • Interactions with supernatural inhabitants (faeries, beasts of virtue, etc.)
  • Dealing with the local feudal lords
  • Defending the covenant against threats from the rest of the Tribunal

More details

This will have to contain everything needed for play. Four fully-specified mage PCs. Four fully-specified companion PCs. Four to eight fully specified grog PCs. Fully defined covenant with boons, hooks, library, etc. However many NPCs are needed to flesh things out.

(These may have customisation notes, but using them is optional. No comments of "you only need to add three virtues and flaws and spend another 50XP before play".)

Characters will be about 30-ish, to be a bit more rounded than "just past Gauntlet". They'll have hooks into the saga, short- and long-term goals, and advice on how to play in adventures and seasonal downtime.

It will use only the core rulebook. It won't contradict material in other 5e books, but none of those will be required for play. It may even have a simplified subset of the rules included (all you need to play, and only that) given the upcoming CC licence, if we get that far.

(This restriction comes from looking at what's in other starter sets, and my experience of being involved in a newbie game of Ars Magica.)

The ask

I can do some of the writing for this, including background definition and setting up story seeds. But I'm still a newcomer to Ars Magica, so will need help with rules, creating rounded and playable characters, and brainstorming the wider issues.

We have a Google Doc of what we've created so far

Who wants to help?

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I could help, if we we hit the same tune. How do you want to work?

To me it is important to make the story coherent, and avoid pulling in different directions; that is, the connections between the scenarioes should not be supeficial, and somehow directed by some joint goal of the players.

Do you intend to start with just the ruins and build the covenant from scratch? Or have the PCs already built up the essential functions? If you start with just the ruins, the theme of the saga is given, and it will probably take a decade to recruit the people and acquire the resources for a decent living.

I do not see a rush of people. Have you had a lot of private responses?

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For a great example of that, I can't recommend enough the first, let's say, 3 seasons of Young Justice. They're a masterpiece of weaving character flaws into the larger story, and are driven largely by the actions of Roy Harper (whichever one.), a PC.

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Thanks for the reply. I've not had a lot of responses.

How to work? I was thinking some discussion to agree the shape of what we're producing, dividing any work between those interested, then writing it!

As for theme of the saga: we could easily say the re-founding is sponsored by a nearby Summer covenant, so support and resources are available; but then it's clear there are no great treasures easily to hand, the senior magi lose interest and leave things to the younger PCs. And if there's nothing interesting to play out while building up infrastructure, there's no need to dedicate player time to it: we can just handwave a few seasons of activity and move on.

Regarding the connections between scenarios. I generally don't have "stories" in mind when I run games. Instead, I have "situations" that evolve and react to what the PCs do, with NPCs (and other "Fronts") that have their own objectives and abilities to bring them about. Everything connects because it's the same group of PCs, NPCs, and other factors across all the adventure sessions. But that's my style.

If you're interested in one multi-part story, I'm happy to talk about how that could happen!

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Your style is not necessarily different from mine, but I have been troubled by saga quickly growing over-complicated because each player wants to throw in a handful of minmaxed grogs and two or three pet plots. Sitting down to write something, I would want to do better than that.

I think the solution to this is to make stories that really are about the survival of the covenant. Life is supposed to be hard, and most Spring covenants fail. Even with support from a Summer covenant, there will be ample challenges. Deals must be made with local nobles, faeries, and whatnot.

The other big challenge I have had as a player and SG is to manage sessions so that the saga proceeds at a reasonable pace without brushing everything under the carpet. I have found that exceedingly tricky in practice. Situations are fine, but they need to be managed ... advice on how to do this better is something I really think a starter set needs.

So in short, I am really only interested in writing for something which is (1) low power, and (2) centred on a coherent covenant in some way. Other than that, I am quite flexible.

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Something I thought might be useful for a starter saga is a first adventure with only grogs doing something like securing a site before the other arrive. A short adventure like that would get everyone used to Abilities and combat without dealing with the magic. It's basically what lots of people have suggested (intro adventure with grogs), but that you could have the grogs specifically furthering exploring the site.

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By "starter", I was meaning "starter". The collective opinion from the campaign I'm in (where we're all Ars Magica neophytes, including me) is that character generation is hard. Therefore, I was intending that this pack would include the mages, companions and (most of) the grogs needed. That way, we can make sure the characters are reasonable rounded people, and connect some of the activity in the saga to the characters.

I would hope that would allow some of the saga to be about the characters' goals and dreams, rather than everything being just about grim survival.

I agree with your ideas that the starter saga should be low-power and coherent.

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A grog-only scenario is an excellent idea.

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I do not object to that, and making a story for each of the magi's story flaws is most certainly a good idea. A starter set means that one can both tailor the characters to the story and the story to the characters, and one should take advantage of that.

I also think it is a better idea to try to design one-night stories (or situations), and try to space out the activity instead of having multi-session stories interleaved with years of downtime. I think that will give a better impression of how the covenant evolves.

Character creation can be hard, I agree, but I still think it is the simplest step in making a good saga.

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For complete newcomers to the system, it's overwhelming. Not so much the mechanics, but the choices that will lead to a playable character.

I'm away for the next couple of weeks, so will only have intermittent opportunity to engage. Shall we pick things up near the end of the month? In the meantime, is there anything in the proposed outline above anyone would like to change?

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I agree that it is complex and potentially overwhelming but I have to question that last bit at least for magi. I believe that practically any magi is a playable character if you lean into the idea of one magus per adventure and ditch the idea of balancing things between magi.

Companions are tough though. They need to be fairly competent at their roles from the start.

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Not a mainstream opinion: skip the companions.

They clog up play time with their story and major personality flaws, leave those tot he magi and just embrace thengrigs as non disposable.

A small Covenant with 3 mages and a dozen named grogs will do the trick, the companions can always be added further down the line but are not a must have.

Ultimately the "core" grogs needed are 4 or so combat grogs, 2-3 social ones (which might include a turb leader which overlaps with the previous category)and a few other specialists: forge companions for the Verditius (if appropriate), someone to pilot the main modenof transportation, a "builder", a hunter ir two and some kind of crafter based on the magi's arts (someone to work bones for a necromancer, a swordsmith for a school of ramius flambeau, a gem cutter for the Terram specialist or whatever).

Sure you have great ideas for a non gifted hedge tradition character etc that just needs 3 major virtues, but the aim is just to get some beginners going.

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Does anyone know where exactly Bentalone is in Provence? Faith & Flame only has a single entry about it and doesn't tell me where it is.

I need to get some characters ready for a convention game next week, so I will have a go at creating some companions and tailoring them slightly to a Provencal setting.

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I was curious, best I can find is Croce del Bentalone which is a big crucifix overlooking Lake Como... I guess it might just be invented, alternatively, there might be something about it in an older edition book?

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Not a clue. I was hoping it's not specified, so we can place it anywhere we like. I was thinking it could be somewhere on the souhern side of the Massif Central, so there's some less-densely-populated bits to have adventures in.

(There's also a history of lead, silver, zinc and even gold mining in the area, so that fits the stereotypical "covenant's source of money without needed a couple of villages" economic base.)

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I live in Provence, and this is the first time I see the name :rofl:
I even did a web search, to no avail, even in french :smiling_face_with_tear:

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Bentalone is mentioned in Faith&Flame as a former covenant that was destroyed during the crusade against the cathars.
So it is not surprising it does not show up on any real-world maps :slight_smile:

As to where it was located - does it matter? Place it wherever you want it.

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You have a point, but the important point you have is that all the grogs and companions should fill critical covenant roles. Making pregens for a starter box, this is easy enough to do; it is just that four out of the lot may be companion-level instead of grog-level.

I suppose you want to argue to keep all of them to grog-level too, but firstly, that's less important for the flow, and secondly, making a starter set, it may be a good idea to demonstrate how to make companions that serve the coherence of the covenant, instead of pulling off on a tangent.

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In terms of setting, I see no point in fiddling with it. To me the choice is arbitrary. We can work with anything.

In terms of structure, I would suggest

  1. No in-covenant NPCs. The covenant is a player character, and thus the covenfolk should be too. Except for unskilled and unnamed servants and teamsters. This is mainly to keep it simple. The number of four magi, four companions and 4-8 grogs is fine. Probably eight, four martial ones and four non-martial would be my guess.
  2. Aim four a dozen one-night stories/situations, rather than four scenarioes spanning those dozen sessions.

I would also suggest that we discuss
3. Starting level of magi and of the covenant. I think there is a strong case for having PCs straight out of gauntlet, particularly since this is the core rule default. In this case, they can either start with the ruins and the story is the refoundation, or the covenant has been refounded by now twilit magit. If we go with your idea of having magi five(?) years out of gauntlet, they could have founded the covenant five years ago, so that it is now approaching stable. If you feel strongly about this, I think you should just declare it.

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I was thinking three or four starting scenarios, each lasting a session or two. Then we have guidance on how to follow-up the results of those and feed them into new scenarios that come organically from what has come before. This is the approach of things like Fronts from Apocalypse World and the action of Heat in Blades in the Dark and A|State .

I get the impression that immediately-post-Gauntlet magi are a bit limited in range. A couple of years rounding them out makes for characters with fewer blind spots. Hence the idea of having characters at that point. "Just passed Gauntlet" makes for easier character generation, but that's not necessarily a consideration for this specific project.

If the covenant has been founded with some support (over some little time) we can pick and choose which stories we want to tell. Some bits of "find out what's in the cellar" or "negotiate an agreement with the local lord" we can have as adventures if they're interesting; if they're not, we can say they were already done before the saga starts.

All that said, I'm not 100% wedded to either of these positions.