I'm not sure how often people play Mythic Companion PCs instead of Hermetic magi but I thought I'd throw this one out there...
Given that a Mythic Companion is intended as "magus-level" character for a player, yet does not have a normal Hermetic apprenticeship as such what do people do for starting XP/character creation if using the Detailed Character Generation rules? (ArM5 p28-32)
IMO they should receive similar XP to a magus (240 XP+) if their tradition/background includes a similar period of intensive training - the precedent being that unGifted Redcaps Companions (ArM5, p48) gain 300XP to spend, albeit at the cost of a Major Social Virtue (which includes other benefits), and the reasoning being that unlike Redcaps, such a character is "magus-level" and in the RAW is taken in place of a Hermetic magus.
Given the general inherent superiority/flexibility of Hermetic magi designed into ArM5 it seems crass to slight an MC even further by losing out on the XP if there is a similar "apprenticeship".
XP "post-apprenticeship" is a similar matter - for decent powered MCs occupying a magus slot and an equivalent or near equivalent level of power/role within a covenant/saga it seems reasonable to allow 30XP/year rather than just the usual 15XP for non-magus level "standard" Companions.
Given the ability to have nearly double the number of virtues, and the lack of necessity to spend XP on spells and Arts, I've generally found the Mythic Companion characters I've played around with making up to be quite powerful enough already.
Mind you, that may partly be from concious choices. My Mythic Companion paper-trial characters are often a little bit older and usually have some aging-related virtue (unaging, faerie blood, a redcap with a longevity potion, etc). They rarely even need to spend 3 virtue points on 'wealthy' to have a very large pool of xp to play with - and 'wealthy' is something highly recommended IMO for mythic companions anyway because they don't really want to be tied down 2 seasons/year if they are your main character.
Its the large swag of virtues that make them really Mythic and they need less xp than mages anyway because they are usually largely only using xp for Abilities (although they will often have more, and higher level, abilities than a similarly aged Magus).
Basically, my thoughts are I see what you're saying, but haven't found it an issue on paper at least.
I agree. The Mythic Companion can afford to spend a few virtues on things that bestow massive experience (Educated, Warrior, Arcane Lore, Wealthy, etceteras). Even if using it as a template for making a powerful Hedge Wizard (I know what you're up too ), they are not going to have access to the training and study resources that the Order of Hermes has.
Unless you're thinking about the Order of Suleiman (I know what you're up to Jarkman )
I personally think that Grogs should get a little boost, and the Custos social class should come with +50 experience points.
All good points Corbon I admit but this in particular is the rub if we are talking about Mythic Companions belonging to the Order via House Ex Miscellanea...
For a "magus-level" Mythic Companion PC, shouldn't they have the same freedom as a Hermetic magus in order to compare, particularly if they are accepted as such within the Order and/or covenant - ie supported by the covenant rather than having to earn a living?
It appears that p107 of HoH:Societas clarifies the situation for Gifted Companions ie characters with the Gift, the Hermetic Magus Social Status Virtue and one Major Supernatural Virtue but no Hermetic powers eg Scinnfolk. Such characters "complete character creation as a Companion..." and the paragraph later notes that "troupes should consider whether a Gifted Companion should take the place of a player's magus character, even though he may not be as powerful.."
IMO, a Gifted Companion should take the place of a magus character if they have the Hermetic Magus Social Status Virtue - thereby freeing them up from the tedium of 2 seasons of "work" unless they take the Wealthy Flaw. Such a character does not however necessarily have access to the usual XP granting Virtues as easily as a Mythic Companion though.
Membership of the Order seems to guarantee 4 free seasons per year and support from the covenant ie. more time to spend gaining XP.
So if we use the example of an unGifted Ex Misc Mythic Companion which "may also fill the role of non-Hermetic magicians within the Order" (HoH:Societas p106), such a character should also benefit from the Hermetic Magus Social Status Virtue, as a member of the Order and be free to spend all 4 seasons once joined.
This implies to me that even if such Mythic Companion non-Hermetic magi belonging to the Order do not get additional starting XP from a highly structured/resourced Hermetic apprenticeship (and as Corbon points out there are Virtues etc in the 20 Virtue/10 Flaw allotment that can compensate for this to a degree but I dislike this min-maxing temptation and prefer to choose relevant particularly Supernatural Virtues), once they join and are supported by the covenant/Order they might still be eligible for the 30XP/year endowed to a Hermetic magus due to the same "free time" as it were.
(And yes Marko I am thinking about the Order of Suleiman as an example of an equivalently intense apprenticeship but there's already been a discussion on the meta-game implications of multiple Orders of Gifted magi in Mythic Europe that I am considering the finer points of).
For a starting mystical companion I would give 20 xp/year if he had so much free time to study like Hermetic apprentices have. This is the same amount of xp the Redcaps get.
30 xp too much for them, remember magi spend this also improving arts and learning spells which is far easier than learning abilities. So 20 xp again.
You mentioned this guy is the member of an order. If this is the Hermetic one, they will supply him so no reason to get the wealthy virtue. He gets 4 season for study.
If the "other" order is not able to supply their magi like Hermetics do you should reduce the later life xp to the standard 15 and the 4 available seasons to 2 or maybe 3.
Note: I didn't read Societas.
Although we have not seen instances of non-Hermetic magi with spells (?yet), Mythic Companions may have access to the Goetic Arts and/or Accelerated Abilities (1 XP per pyramid point like Arts rather than normal Abilities), so they do in fact use XP for something other than Abilities in a way... but I'm not sure why this should justify their higher XP.
I posited an example of an unGifted MC member of the Order of Hermes. Whether there could be an alternative Order of wizards in Mythic Europe that provides comparable training is not currently supported by canon.
Then they are Magi, whether gifted or not, Hermetic or not. So the question is irrelevant IMO - it was about 'magus-level' Mythic companions, which may fill a players Magus spot, but are not actually magi.
Note the following...
Hermetic Magus: You are a member of the Order of Hermes. All magi must take this as their Social Status, and only magi may take it.
Blood of Heroes: ...You do not have The Gift,... ...you must normally belong to House Mercere... ...It is not possible to have both Blood of Heroes and The Gift; magi can gain access to Heroic Virtues and Flaws by taking Mythic Blood....
Normally, a Mythic Companion should be from house Mercere.
A non-mercere Mythic companion could possibly be an ungifted Magus, probably ex-Misc.
An ab-normal ex-Misc choice makes the character a magus, therefore he/she gets treated as a magus in every way, except for being ungifted. I guess those 120xp worth of spells are just lost... OTOH the extra virtues will more than make up for that.
Mythic companions are specifically ungifted. Otherwise, fine. IF the Mythic Companion is ex-Misc then they are a magus and get treated as such. If not, then not (IMO).
Naturally
Yes - if they signed up to the order and got accepted. Membership has its priviledges (and responsibilities).
Comments?
Jarkman
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Only that you've now added an additional clause - that the 'Magus-level' character is now in fact an actual Magus (if ungifted).
Oh, and I wasn't suggesting that the extra virtues be spent on xp gainers. Just the additional 'cool stuff' virtues available are enough to make extremely powerful (relatively) characters.
Eg Blood of Heroes, Redcap, Giant Blood, Invisible to Magic, Great Bearer, Tough, Mythic Dexterity, Puissant Great Weapon, Affinity Great Weapon, Self Confident, Long Winded, Enduring Constitution and Second Sight for an off the cuff "Redcap Champion" Hoplite example.
I disagree. The Blood of Heros style of Mythic Companion mayhaps, but even then, just because that is where they were introduced does not mean it should be their exclusive province. I don't see any of the Mythic Companion characters presented in RoP-D as being Mercere members.
We haven't seen all the varieties of Mythic Companion yet. I'm sure that RoP- Magic will introduce some new Hedge Wizard types based on the MC template, and I figure they'd have the Gift and a butt load of required package virtues (Gruagachan and non-Hermetic Sahirs maybe).
Doesn't matter what their tradition is. As long as they adhere to the Join or Die policy, they are safe from my fiery wrath
I'll leave aside the whole alternate Order aspect and concentrate on Gifted Companions and Mythic Companions within the order ie House Ex Miscellanea for the main part.
A Hermetic magus gets 30 XP/year in later life.
I propose that a non-Hermetic magus (ie a Mythic Companion or a Gifted Companion) who belongs to the Order of Hermes also get 30XP a year as even if neither can purchase spells they have access to the same time and resources of other magi of the Order. Many have access to Arts or Accelerated Abilities and the lack of a need to purchase spells is irrelevant IMO as to whether they should have a differing XP.
Note that HoH:S specifically states that an Ex-Misc Gifted Companion is created as a Companion after choosing Virtues and Flaws ie they miss out on the extra XP of apprenticeship and the higher later life XP/year granted to a magus of the Order.
This seems inconsistent to me.
There is no ruling for an Ex-Misc Mythic Companion being played as the player's magus level character. Blood of Heroes Mythic Companions are a specific case and predominantly House Mercere and therefore often but not exclusively Redcaps.
I'd suggest that either of these character types, if played as the player's magus level character and possessing the Hermetic Magus Social Status Virtue (which I'd argue should nearly always be the case provided a sufficient backstory) should get 300XP from an "apprenticeship or equivalent" just like Redcaps (which works out to 20XP/year over 15 years) and then be eligible for the usual 30XP/year in later life.
They will still be less powerful than a Hermetic magus in terms of flexibility, although perhaps possible to exceed Hermetic limits in one specific area - Gifted Companions for instance are much more limited than Mythic Companions at least initially unless they have Favoured Abilities. They will also be politically limited by their non-Hermetic status - Hedge Wizard Flaw would be highly apprropiate.
UnGifted Mythic Companions can't learn Parma Magica - only Gifted characters can do that ie. Gifted Companions.
One of the problems is that the Hermetic Magus Social Status Virtue is confusing - rather than specifically referring to Hermetic magi characters, it really means "recognised as a magus by the Order of Hermes". Sure the majority of members of the Order are Hermetic magi but there is precedent given by unGifted Redcaps and examples in HoH:Societas that some are not.
Yes, yes, yes. I apologise for being unclear initially.
Yes, I've fiddled around with a Blood of Heroes Mythic Companion ex-Redcap weaponmaster of House Jerbiton. Even without a whole package of Supernatural Virtues granting spell-like abilities, the 20V/10F thing makes for some pretty formidable and flexible characters for variant campaigns with heavy mundane involvement.
There is a hint that some Redcaps join other Houses and a suggestion that non-Mercere Houses have unGifted members given in HoH:True Lineages, Mercere chapter.
The word Larta is not specifically mentioned, but...
It would seem logical to consider that some Mercere Mythic Companion characters occassionally get adopted out for their own good eg. Goliards etc. I'd even consider it reasonable for House Jerbiton to poach promising artistic Mythic Companion Redcaps with the odd magical ability or two who seem to be less interested in delivering messages by "inviting" them to join their House shortly after apprenticeship...
Apologies all. I don't have RoPD and my FLGS is not being friendly, having 3x bungled my order for HoHS. I'd order it direct if my address was a little more sure of being fixed for several months (it will be soon I hope).
So the only Mythic Companions I'm referring to are the Blood of Heroes type. My Bad.
), they are not going to have access to the training and study resources that the Order of Hermes has.
ex-Misc choice makes the character a magus, therefore he/she gets treated as a magus in every way, except for being ungifted. I guess those 120xp worth of spells are just lost... 
OTOH the extra virtues will more than make up for that.