Subscription is the way to go?

KS is great for a few reasons--

  • it handles the money collection element.
  • It shares your project on a public space that others can share
  • It gives a direct communication line
  • It provides a "proof of delivery" space owned by a 3rd party

Now there's room to quibble on some of those points ("X is not great because..."), but for the most part, KS gives this stage to offer up proof of concept, proof of competence, and build momentum. Once you've got people excited at that level, the projects can work there on a fairly consistent schedule. Kobold Press (another place I've done some writing) is an excellent example of this on KS.

We'll see how things go... :smiley:

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The thing is for an established company like Atlas, the only one of these which is (IMO) a real benefit is the expanded ad space, since atlas would be selling their own merchandise and already does so, including handling payments.

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The expanded access to a space where people might have your project recommended to them via search options, recommendation lists, or friends backing the project all have great value.

The Atlas site primarily has people using it who already know and like Atlas and Ars.

KS draws in people who don't yet know they like Atlas and Ars, but probably will, and shows them other projects that have successfully delivered. All of that helps build the fanbase and expose the game to more people. They might be able to do all those other things, but it might be more beneficial for someone else to manage/run/maintain them and give Atlas a bigger presence.

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I don't know enough about KS to know what the advertising value would be for using that space, nor what the cost might be, or whether different projects might be considered for different offerings.
I do have some thoughts about "spin off" books for alternate histories or other products, if Atlas would be interested in offering those products...

I believe Atlas does, though-- they've run 7 successful campaigns there, including one for Over the Edge and one for Feng Shui 2 -- both hitting 6 figures and thousands of backers. They've got an eye for it now. :slight_smile:

I think that they can hopefully use it to leapfrog the obstacle of diminishing returns that often happens with a line as it grows. Here's hoping.

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With the first release in the Feng Shui subscription program coming later the month, here's my thoughts on the program so far:

  1. Running a successful Kickstarter is both expensive and time-consuming. Their advantage, of course, is that they can make a big splash and get a lot of people excited about a game. Kickstarters will definitely continue to be a part of the Atlas business plan, but they aren't a cure-all. And they can end up being a net loss if you're not careful.

  2. The goal of our committed preorder subscription plan is basically the opposite: Success, for us, is not defined in terms of a huge influx of one-time capital. Instead, our goal is to build a community of subscribers large enough that we can put projects into development with confidence: If we know that our development and production costs will be covered by the subscription program, then we can launch new projects with complete confidence. The more subscribers we get -- the more people willing to say, "Yes! I want more of this game! -- the larger and more ambitious those projects can get.

And this is working! At the moment, I have seven different Feng Shui projects in various stages of development. A year ago that would have been unthinkable for us. We would have needed to wait for the first project to go on sale and then very carefully analyzed the sales numbers before committing to the next one. (A process which -- due to development time, printing time, and shipping time -- makes it virtually impossible to publish more than one book for an RPG per year. And it takes just one miss (I picked the wrong topic, we launched the book just as a global pandemic started, etc.) to basically torpedo the whole line.

So this is good for subscribers -- the big fans who want everything for a game -- but it's good for any fan: Maybe you don't want everything. But the more stuff we produce, the more likely it is that you'll find what you want. And that's good for the game!

  1. I've seen some theories that these subscriptions would enable Atlas to start churning out shovelware: Ha! Ha! We have your commitment to buy, so I can just publish any ol' crap and cash in!

My sense is that it's really the exact opposite: Sure, I could rip you off once. But only once, right? Then you'd cancel your subscription. And once I have the # of subscribers I need to continue producing Feng Shui or Ars Magica or Unknown Armies books, the last thing I'd want to do (from either a creative, business, or ethical POV) is jeopardize it!

I run a Patreon for my independent work over at the Alexandrian. And I am hyper-aware that if I don't product high quality material for the site, my subscribers can vanish in the blink of an eye. The more subscribers I get, the more I actually feel that pressure.

  1. Does this mean we'll be doing a subscription program for Ars Magica? That remains uncertain. We need to see how the first couple of releases for the Feng Shui Dragon subscriptions go, and maybe tweak a few things before launching additional subscription lines.

But what I can say is that Ars Magica 5th Edition seems like pretty much the perfect candidate for a subscription program: The core problem with producing more books for the line boils down to uncertainty about whether we can sell the # of copies required to pay for the books to be made. With 40 books already extant, there's a real problem with saturation -- for the fans (how many books do they need?), for the distributors (how many ArM titles do we want in our warehouses?), and for the stores (how much shelf space can we give to ArM?).

A subscription program would basically answer that question definitively: Either there ARE enough fans interested in new books to support new material. Or there isn't. And we'd be able to know that with surety before pulling the trigger.

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From what we have seen in this thread the primary obstacle you face is a perceptive one- saying you have no incentive to produce shovelware is fine, but that has been the claim of every subscription service since the early 80's, many of which made it very difficult to cancel a subscription and then did produce shovelware. You might consider calling it something other than a subscription, and you definitely need to lay out more about how the program would work, because selling the membership to this program is based on your customer's sense of what is being offered, not yours.
That being said, I would definitely be interested in a link to where this is being developed, as well as some idea of what sort of books you would be looking to produce...

On my end, it's not about need, it's about want. If they're quality books, I don't really think there's an upper cap in terms of number of books.

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I think the question of need is more about the limits of the world itself. There is only so much mythic Europe to write about, unless there are discoveries to add to the game- lands beyond the known (which may or may not correspond to the real world) alternate histories, alternate worlds- any of these could be a place to expand. Otherwise what you have left is new mystery cults, new hedge traditions, scenario modules... things that certainly do sell with a more limited demand. Perhaps extensive lists of saints, angels, and daimons complete with write ups...

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Yes, you can always paint in smaller strokes, but demand is not as strong for say a city in the Rhine compared to the Novgorod tribunal...

One final piece I'd like to throw into the ring here...

AFAIK nobody has a subscription model that includes the local game store. If it could, I'd be more loyal to it. I know there's probably a whole other level of logistics with anything of the kind. But with a bit of tech, it seems like it should be possible.

I simply want my local game store to have more of an incentive for me to have a subscription.

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@rustleinthewoods: That's an interesting thought. Atlas already does a lot of direct fulfillment for retailers, so there might be some way to run subscriptions through your FLGS that could be good for everybody.

(Tangentially: If your FLGS is saying that they're having difficulty getting ArM products through their distributors, let them know that Atlas can probably supply them directly. And let us know, too, because we'd love to address any and all shortcomings in our distribution!)

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We actually did this (more or less) some years ago - and it worked very well indeed.

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It seems that I am a bit late to this thread. I have been quite unfocused this last year. IMHO:

  1. Set a plan of publications.
  2. Make it public.
  3. Set a minimum number of subscribers/patrons.
  4. Open subscriptions: if you get enough subscribers, go on with the plan. If not, wait for it. A lot of people come by this forum even if it is not every day. It can eventually reach critical mass.

I see nothing to lose.

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In a tangential question, what kind of market does anyone expect there would be for an alternate history supplement?
My concept is this: Ars Magica has two conceits in conflict (for the purpose of this supplement) 1) that the order's existence, and magic in general did nothing (substantial at least) to change history and 2) that Bonisagus was in correspondence with Charlemagne.
However historically Charlemagne enslaved all (proclaimed) wizards to the throne, except those who were diabolists or sacrificed to pagan gods, whom he executed.
So what if Bonisagus' letters to Charlemagne changed that history, and thereby changed the history of what would, in the prime timeline become the Holy Roman Empire?

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From which historical sources do you get your all-powerful Charlemagne?

EDIT: ArM5 is far more clever about the contacts between Charlemagne and the early Order of Hermes than you recall.

Richard Kieckhefer: Magic in the Middle Ages - Cambridge University Press 1990 refers in cp.8 to a capitulary of Charlemagne for the just subdued Saxons. It orders, that all those convicted of sorcery and divination shall become slaves of the church, and those making sacrifices to the devil (i. e. the Saxon gods) shall be executed.

The capitulary referred to by Kieckhefer, the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae from 782, precisely states:

Divinos et sortilegos ecelesiis et sacerdotibus dare constituimus.

In GotF p.140 we find:

789 The Founder Jerbiton meets with Charlemagne, after having adopted a
number of apprentices of the emperor’s mage-smith, Carolinus. Charlemagne issues a decree outlawing sorcery and paganism, but permits “benevolent magic” such as that practiced by Jerbiton

And lo, in Charlemagne's Admonitio Generalis of 789 we mainly find the canon laws as gathered and redacted by Adrian I, allowing for the ambivalence of the Western Church versus magic.

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  1. I neve claimed an all powerful Charlemagne, that is simply a strawman trying to backdoor an ad hominem
  2. that still leaves a gap of 7 years when any member of the order would be subject to arrest
  3. Why would Jerbiton need a special meeting from Charlemagne if Bonisagus had already been corresponding with him and finally
  4. the question was what interest there would be in an alternate history supplement, not whether you could go out of your way to be an asshole about shooting holes in the premise. Certainly there are existing products with much bigger holes.

I would love a book with alternate history elements. Things like a more public Order where its people may serve as court wizards. Or maybe one where history doesn't exactly fall like it does in canon and what sort of ramifications that might have down the line. Basically a book of past what if's would be very useful.

Maybe even what if there was Houses could be a part of that.

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Well, you did. See:

Of course, he was not that powerful at all.

The years in between 782 and 789 in Mythic Europe were filled with making the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae known, execute what was possible of it in Saxony, and then some time to have it become known in the Order as well.

I have no idea where you take the correspondence of Bonisagus and Charlemagne from in ArM5. Anyway, Jerbiton (see HoH:S p.40, TSE p.20f) was exactly the founder to subtly confront Charlemagne, leveraging his control over the apprentices and his knowledge of practices of the Emperor's mage-smith. Well, he succeeded.

To create interest, you introduced your idea in a pretty flawed way, namely:

Of the ArM5 founding magi, Jerbiton did something subtle and consequential about Charlemagne's politics, as we have seen. No need for Bonisagus to have a correspondence with the Emperor.

So, what remains of your idea? Have an alternate history, where Bonisagus resolved something by unlikely moral suasion and openly changing the world, which in Mythic Europe Jerbiton simply resolved by subtle politics, without the need to recreate over four centuries of history?

The law stated that all wizards were treated as stated above. Obviously not everybody could be caught. This is simply you being an ass. The point of saying all is not to indicate he was omnipotent, but rather that there were no exceptions historically.

As to the source of Bonisagus corresponding with Charlemange, I cannot locate the reference right now- it was essentially a throwaway line somewhere. If you want you can simply consider it a new aspect of the new history.

And no, it was not "by unlikely moral suasuion" it was in fact by revealing a real world act of intrigue regarding Charlemagnes brother, the pope at the time, and the Lombards, in which, from a certain perspective, Charlemagne was manipulated to turning on the Lombards who were his allies (he had at one point married the daughter) to defend the church from invasion while the pope in question was also plotting with Charlemagne's brother who sought to overthrow him politically. A little information at the right tie could have a very dynamic shifting of allegiances and profound effects on the outcome of the empire, especially in that it could effect Charlemagne's future marriage after he set his bride aside.
Additionally the Lombards taking over the Catholic Church by military force would have a bit of an impact on the future as well.