Summa and supernatural abilities

Just occurred to me but what about having a level 1 summa with everything else put into quality. By RAW you could start with say Second Sight Level I, Quality 32. That would allow a magus with arts <= 27 + bonus to learn the ability to one in a single season.

Oh and in a completely unrelated question, does anybody know which 5th ed supplement the Mongol Shaman is stated up in?

The first season of learning (picking-up) a supernatural ability is only by Teaching or Training; so the summa won't help.

And it's in Ancient Magic, p. 15-18.



That makes sense, from a balance point of view. But where is the rule? Sure, I want to use it, but I may have to point people to it who don't know it and disagree.

I want to say it's suggested in the core book, too. I haven't read Ancient Magic much, but I still remember that fiat from somewhere. :confused:

It's in the corebook, p.166, second column, last paragraph, third sentence:

"The initial training in a supernatural ability must be by Training or Teaching..."

Much obliged

The requirement of Teaching or Training as the initial xp source for learning Supernatural Abilities through the Gift is indeed in the corebook.

The Ancient Magic reference given by Yair was for the mongol shaman statistics.

Right. Sorry about the unclear phrasing.

Incidentally, to get my own (private, unofficial) take on Mongol shamans you can get Sub Rosa #7, under "More Mythic Mongols". More Infernal, but in many ways similar.


Hum a shaman with only summoning feels kind of like a placeholder. I wonder if I shoudn't add a couple more virtues to bring them in line with the 3rd edition shaman. On the other hand maybe this is intended to be a non-gifted tradition. Not sure about making them infernal either.

It certainly read like a placeholder to me.

For a fuller Shaman, I would suggest giving him Arcadian Travel (HoHMC p. 92). Add in Second Sight, Summoning, and Commanding (or something like that) - and you've got a a nice Shaman character. Perhaps round him up with Dream Interpreter (TMRE).

Not sure if aligning him with Faerie or Magic is most appropriate, though.

The OP's idea is also seen in the malleus epistula mentioned in RoP: I, p. 132.
Interestingly, it appears to be a rather orthless document. :slight_smile:

This thread led me to an interesting character concept. I could see it working for either a Bonisagus or a Tremere. Which one would depend upon the overall outlook and the style the player wants. The idea is that the character's parens has found a Gifted child that has a great ability to both learn from instruction and to teach. The parens wanted to produce a magus(a) who could teach other members of the Order (Bonisagus) / House (Tremere) Supernatural Abilities. The idea would be to not train the apprentice too far in the Arts, focusing instead on Magic Theory, Teaching, Order of Hermes Lore, etc. Then just after passing his/her gauntlet the magus(a) would need to be taught a bunch of Supernatural Abilities or Arts that can be gained this way, such as Summoning. The Arts should come last since the minimum experience is smaller. This character should have:

Apt Student
Good Teacher
Communication +3 (or higher)

Given an appropriate learning environment would be set up, this character should be able to learn at Quality 3 + 6 (alone) + 5 (Apt Student) + 3 (lab) + ? (Communication of teacher) + ? (teacher's Teaching or Teaching+1) - 15 (Arts) = 2+(teacher's Com)+(teacher's Teaching or Teaching+1) at the beginning. If you could get a willing group together, which again is most likely with Bonisagus magi or Tremere magi, you should be able to pick up several Supernatural Abilities followed by several non-Hermetic Arts. If this is a truly collaborative effort, which could include Bonisagi stealing apprentices, you might even be able to Open the Gift twice instead or in addition to some of this.

You would also want to have this character move up to Communication +5.

Afterward, not only would you have someone who could write well, but you'd have someone who could teach a variety of Supernatural Abilities or non-Hermetic Arts to magi at Quality 3 + 6 (alone) + 5 (Good Teacher) + 3 (lab) + 5 (Communication) + ? (Teaching+1) - ? (Arts) = 23+(Teaching)-(Arts, minimum 15). Other magi could send their apprentices to this magus(a) for one or more seasons after having Opened the Arts. At that point the Quality should be over 10, meaning there's no problem giving such an apprentice a few selected Supernatural Abilities or non-Hermetic Art. Given a focus on Teaching, even many newly gauntleted magi should be able to request a Supernatural Ability or non-Hermetic Art.

This could make for a big shift in the Order/House, though the character would become fairly burdened with duties to the Order/House. The parens would probably gain a lot of renown for bringing this about. I could see many players not enjoying this character, but some (such as me) might well. Anyway, it's an interesting idea I'll have to consider further and maybe play someday.


The Mongol shamans from Ancient Magic are expanded somewhat in Chapter 9: "the Silk Road and Beyond..." of The Cradle and the Crescent - I couldn't comment on this before due to NDA. Ideas for shamans aligned to all four Realms are presented, although the default is the Magic Realm. Yair's version is not incompatible with some of the ideas presented.

I would build a shaman type character slightly differently than above, incorporating some of the Nightwalker and Folk Witch Supernatural Abilities.



Hi, just a couple of thoughts: firstly, you'd still have to subtract the score of the supernatural abilities already learned from subsequent learning totals which limits the total number possible to learn; secondly, have you seen the 'subtle opening' breakthrough and virtue from Hedge Magic Revised p50-51?; or, why open the apprentice's gift at all? No need to subtract 15 then...and they wouldn't become a full magus so could be kept as a pet 'teacher'.

Thus my "at the beginning" statement attached to the Quality.

Yes, but this doesn't require a breakthrough to have already been done.

Because now any magus, not just a Bonisagus, can take your tool from you. Until you Open the Arts it's open season for others to claim your tool as an apprentice. This is one of the reasons I was thinking Bonisagus or Tremere. For example, I could see the Tremere having a plan to improve the whole house via this method, and if so the Prima would probably be quite unhappy with magus training the student if the student could be stolen so easily.