You would need 59 such magi, not 30, and all of them with high Com and good teacher. Plus scribes to copy and distribute those tracti, since they are grouped in covenants of around 6. I'm not saying it can't be done- especially if you are willing to read vain tracti as well, just that it isn't nearly the standard that Johnathon presents. And certainly not in need of some kind of overhaul to the system.
Uhh, I didn't present a standard here.
I did stipulate to Sdelear's suggest that there are 1200-1300 tractatus possible, based on his assumptions. It jibes with the work done here by Arthur.
Getting one's hands on all the tractatus is something of a problem, but nothing a motivated and rich magus shouldn't be prevented from doing. But some magi aren't motivated to get an Art score to 40. Even those with the ability to write well.
True, but at the same time, with scribes available, it only takes one to write the book.
Also keep in mind that a sound summae has level+quality from 28 to 31. If my writing quality is 14 (as it is with many of my characters) then I can write a sound text at level 28. Someone with a writing quality of 11 (sound tractus) would need to have a level of 17 to write a sound the covenant building rules limit the quality of a level 20 summae to quality 11. At (base rules) 6+com+bonuses (generally good teacher) this requires either com 5 (available by ritual spell) or good teacher with com 2. Good teacher is a minor virtue, and presumably not exceptionally rare.
Also keep in mind that Jerbiton are likely to both prize communication, teaching ability, and high scores to overcome divine auras... the one house combines the contradiction to all of your assumptions.
Ok, several things.
Tract are one pawn each not two. That means you could buy one Level 20, Q 10 summa for 20 pawns or 20 Q:10 tracti. Total difference, about 10xp.
Also, it is not clear that advancing arts from reading simply means reading. What you are not doing is running vis through your body and then meditating on the trip. Since mundanes cannot learn arts from a text (even if they would not be able to do anything with them) it seems like using magic might be part of studying. This would help explain the study bonus virtue and study requirements flaw.
That said, it's 21 seasons to raise an art to 20. After 42 seasons of study a magus has a reasonable chance of being able to cast a BoAF in the average town (divine aura of 3 so -9 to casting scores) without suffering fatigue. That is not exactly arch magus material. (Though I do think that the rules for increasing the size of a spell need to be looked at to prevent such things as the Wedding Ring of Gaea). It seems a lot of this discussion is computing power levels from either a magic aura or mundane area, not a -3 * Aura divine aura. Remember, just casting in most fields puts you at -3, a couple huts will get you -6, a town or city -9, a church (and possibly a University) -12 and casting in a Cathedral or other major holy site is -15.
There are some places the rules break down, but it's more to do with increasing magnitudes for size giving you things like The Wedding Ring of Gaea.
I'm not sure a straight XP comparison with a craftsman is a good idea. First master craftsman, legally allowed to employ journeymen, is different from a master of a craft. Also craftsmen have two free seasons a year and are, mainly, increasing their primary skill through exposure. Finally, a reasonably skilled craftsman in the middle ages might be considered less than adept in the eighteenth century.
What we are seeing here, I think, are two things. Books are a good way of spreading knowledge. In the middle age, they are too expensive to be used to leverage a general increase in skill. When the book tells you how to conjure flame from thin air, and it works, the perceived value of the book goes up. Hermetic magi - probably - have skill and XP totals more reflective of a post printing press world. Life in the middle ages in Europe really and truly sucks, when compared to some areas of Africa, Asia and the Middle East during the same period.
Also, magi can have useful lives of over a hundred years. That tend to increase the level of knowledge within the order. If nothing else, having the magical version of penicillin (purification of the festering wounds and cheat the reaper) certainly helps contain mortality.
No,they are two pawns, according to covenants on page 95. Sound tractatus, anway, in that 9-11 range. And if you want it right away, say a copy is at Tribunal, the covenant might charge you three pawns, rather than two and sending you a copy. Prices go up from there...
Perhaps, but nothing I said prevents that, too. Bottom line, it's reading for XP. If you want to handwave some light magic being done to bear that out, I can see it, but it doesn't impact what's happening. When one studies from vis, it isn't necessarily consuming the vis to see what happens, it could be releasing it from its fixed form and the phantasms related to the experience can be meditated upon. And when you botch those phantasms are a bit more aggressive.
Well, 42 seasons is 10.5 years. Considering one is considered a master at around 30 years (in the Rhine, where the title matters)... Your numbers aren't very persuasive.
Perhaps, but it is certainly apropos for the skilled professional necessary to grant bonuses to the book, and that level is 6. A score of 5-6 is probably more than reasonable to consider one a master of their Craft. A similar score in an Art (12 or more), a single Art, is probably enough to get some renown for being proficient in all uses of that Art, able to easily cast third magnitude spells if learned.
I'm not sure what you're saying here? That there are too many books in the Order? There should be less?
Magi now have useful lives of over a hundred years. There's been discussion that this wasn't always the case. It's conceivable that the Longevity Ritual has seen several improvements to look like what it does today. It could be that the current crop of Magi who are 100+ years old in 1220 have less advanced longevity rituals and due to their advanced age getting new ones is really difficult AND expensive.
There's a limit on how much extra quality you can get from trading levels - the final maximum cannot be more than double: the author's Comm + bonuses for virtues + 6 (see page 165 of the main rulebook).
Sigh, well since directly addressed me. . .
You are correct. Hum, one scribe = two (or more) copied tracti a year. Extracting vis from an aura tends to give around 2-4 pawns. If your magus has Com +2 and Great Teacher it makes more sense to write tracti and sell the texts than to pull vim vis out of the aura. For that matter if you can get some sales by exchange going without a Cow and Calf Oath - a covenant could accumulate treatise and turn them into a steady source of vis. I suspect competition might be an issue as the magi of Normandy have probably already thought of this.
This point seems moot. We have no idea what studying hermetic magic from a text entails and no way to establish a basis for comparison.
Isn't that about the same duration as medical school plus a residency?
I believe what I'm saying is that craftmen in Europe in the Middle Ages would, in many instances, be considered less skilled by later standards. Also, many goods produced in the middle ages in Europe would be considered rough or shoddy by later standards. This is by no means 100% true. A score of 5 might be a master of a craft in 1220. That same score might reflect a journeyman in 1720.
Really, now you're just grasping at straws. That is not RAW anywhere. The order is descended from the Cult of Mercury and Diedne Druids. It's just as possible that a longevity ritual came down fully formed. Longevity Rituals seem like one of the last things you want to experiment with. For that matter, I had a spreadsheet generate aging rolls out to 100 for the magus in my create an archmagus thread. Between strong faerie blood (+3 bonus), the bronze cord +3 bonus, +2 from a healthy covenant location, +2 lifestyle and +1 due to a healthy lab she has gained all of one paint in decrepitude (through an unlikely 13 on an aging roll) and three aging points (and an apparent age of 66). I should add though that she has the unaging virtue so that her apparent age is stuck at 36 and the aging points don't do much. The average PC magus is probably going to be more concerned about aging (and I think I'm probably going to have her get a longevity ritual when she picks up that first point of decrepitude at 79). The upshot of all this though is that very old magi are possible even with week longevity potions.
Actually, since I had it all on a spreadsheet anyway, I pulled out the numbers. Without gaining any more bonuses to longevity (such as labs or an increased bronze cord), Sarah of Flambeau would die of old again at age 158 due to rolling 13s on aging dice (with an, unexpressed, apparent age of 75).
I might be doing a bit of interpolation, and not exactly grasping at straws.
We know that:
Further we know that the Schism took place just after the turn of the millennium, so about 200 years go. Safe to say that LR were either less effective, or the Arts of the specialists who make these weren't nearly advanced enough. With an LR 20 it's trival to get to that age. Of course, it starts failing around 200 years, too. Still, an LR 20 is not that difficult to make with a Magic Theory specialist who has decent CrCo Arts scores, a familiar with high int and an extensive magic theory an apprentice, and even another assistant, such as the person for whom he's going to do an LR. I had a character 10 years out of gauntlet who wasn't even that good at Creo Corpus able to generate LR 17, just because he could handle two assistants + familiar in the lab as a Bonisagus. So something is henky.
Well, that explains why the roots or the arts are a rarity. It's hard to get somebody who can write at high quality at low levels. Still, you can do a Level 20, Quality 8 Summa and a Level 15 quality 13 summa. At Com +1 you can also write a level 5, quality 15 primer (7*2 +1 for a resonate binding). Roots of the arts, with level 6, quality 21, would take Com +2 and great teacher (or Com +5).
Now that I stop to think about that, that may also imply a reason why Level + Quality = 35 texts are rare. Since Summa are scribed at 6 + Profession scribe points per season, that puts a lot of economic pressure to produce texts of levels 10-12. A lot of writers cap out on being able to swap levels for quality at between 8 and 10. So 16 (quality) + 12 levels = 28 (sound summa) from a creators with a Com +2 and an arts score of 40. As a either great teacher or +5 com would put the text at quality 19, level 12 (as the writer has no more levels to trade in for skill).
The book pricing rules on page 95 say that it takes one season to copy out a summa for trade. That means there is an implied level limit of 12. The 15/15 texts I have for Veii have what should be unusually high levels and unusually low quality. I see no reason to retcon this out though as one magus with an extensive network of contacts has been making almost all of the book trades. If somebody has a bee in their bonnet for level 15 texts and is willing to do the extra work to get them, I see no reason under RAW they cannot be obtained.
Hum, I just realized something really, really, interesting. It takes 8 seasons to raise an art from 0 to 15 with a 15/15 text. Using a level 12 quality 19 text and four quality 12 (base quality 9, +2 Florilegia, +1 commentary) commentaries, you can also reach level 15 in 8 seasons. A level 12 summa + 4 tracti are going to cost an extra 5 pawns of vis to buy over a level 15 summa. If you are doing a level 12, quality 16-19 summa doing so can preserve up to two prior XPs in the rise from 0 to 12, and XP overruns are not an issue with tracti. The tracti can also be used by more senior magi.
I suspect the intent of RAW is to cause players to engage in book trading for traci. Players just overvalue summa because of 1. build point efficiency and 2. the amount of bookkeeping involved with tracti.
I'm running a campaign now and find a lot to use in this thread, but can I ask a few basic questions?
- What is the most common Quality and Level for Arts Summae in the Order? What about Abilities?
- What's the most common Quality for Tracati?
- How many pawns should they cost?
- How rare are better books? Why are they rarer? Wouldn't you preferentially copy the better written books?
The insert on Page 94 kind of covers this, as far as what is sound, and what is commonly traded. I think it's on the high side, and discounts some other summae that are useful.
Covenants suggests Q10, I prefer a range of Q9-Q11. There is also a post linked above that discusses the quantity of tractatus in the Order that could exist at the given quality level.
Sound tractatus cost two pawns. Summae usually cost their level in vis, this is according to page 95. The prices of these is subject to some negotiation, though. And of course cow and calf may apply.
Here's the link to the post I mentioned earlier, it's directly to the post unlike the link earlier in the thread.
We could probably work up a similar model for summae with some work, from the spreadsheet that Arthur did. It's posted later in the thread, I believe.
One thing that could be worth looking at is the books in Normandy tribunal library page 23 of The Lion and the Lily, if you have that. It doesn't attempt to give an extensive breakdown of the library's contents, but has some sample books. The best of these is a Level 18 quality 17 summa on terram, which costs 35 build points (so is the sort of book you'd get under the Major Covenant Boon 'Exceptional Book'), and is considered to be the Terram Branch of the Art. There is one other book which costs 32 build points (not a branch), and all of the rest of the summae cost in the region 20 - 30 build points.
That book has been corrected in errata and had been mentioned earlier, it is no longer an exceptional book and instead conforms to the best book one can purchase with build points, L17Q14
The average, well regarded, hermetic writer has +2 Com and the Great Teacher virtue (though some simply have +5 com). These are the magi whom describe themselves as writers.
The most common summae, by volume, would be Level 5, quality 15 primers. These, most likely, sell at the same price as a tractus (2 pawns). These can be written by somebody with a Com of +2 and an art score of 21. Primers are used to get arts scores to the level that you can train apprentices. These are not generally Cow and Calf oathed.
What is a root of the art is unclear. These might be Level 6, quality 21. It is also possible that they are level 8, quality 27 texts written by Gifted Mercers with Great Teacher and Com scores boosted to +5 by rituals, an arts score of 40 and a +1 resonate materials bonus. If these exist, they can be ordered from a Redcap, sell for around 4 pawns of vis, are Cow and Calf Oathed and were written specifically for sale by House Mercer. If you decide that they do exist, in your saga, a large number of commentaries also exist covering them.
The second most common Summa type is level 12, quality 18. These are written by hermetic writers with arts scores around 34. This corresponds well with around level 35 being the point of diminishing returns. These cost 12 pawns of vis. Such texts are Cow and Calf oathed. If you want to buy a Summa it's probably Level 12, quality 18. Level 12 as a scribe with Profession (Scribe) 6 can copy one in a single season. It is also a level which a Speak Latin 5, Com +2 magus can write in two seasons.
The next most common group of Summa are Level 20, Quality 8. These are written, primarily, by Bonisagi to show off their mastery of an art. Actually, there are a lot of vain summae at this level, but Level 20, Quality 8 is most likely to circulate. These cost 20 pawns of vis. Normally not Cow and Calfed unless of a Quality higher than 8.
After specialist texts, comes everything that is not either a primer, level 12 or 20 or an extraordinary text. It takes more than one season for a scribe to copy these texts. In most instances they still sell at level = vis as they generate more income than a level 12 summa + a treatise. A magus can write Language + Com score in a summa per level. This limits these to around level 16 (Com +2, Speak Latin +6).
Extraordinary texts are the rarest, but not because they are being horded. Most covenants who are serious about their libraries will have one or two. The order of Hermes is not the Suhar, bound by oath to increase knowledge. On the other hand many magi can't resist copying the best text in the library and trying to trade it. The main reason these texts remain rare is the desire to incorporate story resonate materials. The bottleneck is production, not an unwillingness to copy them.
Often, these are not sold but given as gifts (for political favors). If sold they would probably run around 50 to 100 pawns of vis. Normally not, Cow and Calfed.
Figure:
50% of all arts texts are primers
20% are level 12 trade texts
15% are specialists showing off.
10% are Summas of a level other than 12
5% are extraordinary texts incorporating story resonate materials.
For mundane texts, see the rules for large libraries in Transforming Mythic Europe. I believe the largest library in Europe at this time is located in Southern Italy in consists of around 15,000 texts.
Ok I'm just going to make some stuff up here:
For arcane ability, the highest level text on Magic Theory in the Order is Level 10, Quality 5. It exists to prove its author had a Magic Theory score of 20. Most arcane abilities have Level 2, quality 15 primers - likely almost all written by the same author. Magic theory has a number of level 5 texts of varying quality. There is also a Level 4, Quality 20 text that teaches the reader how to refine their lab and install the spacious (+2 safety) virtue. This text is aimed to show how to childproof a lab and is a common gift to magi who are either pregnant or have taken a very young apprentice. For Parma Magica there is a very popular text with a Level of 4 and quality of 15. This was written by a Flambeau with Com +3 and Great Teacher. For almost all other arcane abilities, the best summa out there is probably Level 4 and Quality 11.
Disregard all the above and go look up the large library rules if the magus reads Arabic and has access to some of the Suhar's libraries. Using the large library rules these can go up to around Level of 10 and Quality 16 for Merv or Basra (though level 6 or 7 and quality around 13 is probably more common). Depending on sect, a major Buddhist library may have individual texts on concentration going all the way up to Level 8-10, quality 12. These are treated much as great texts are in the order. Levels of Theology (Buddhism) are probably needed to make sense of them.
Tracti
Again making stuff up:
A large percentage of tracti are political pamphlets that act as tracti on either Order of Hermes Lore or Code of Hermes. These have a score of around 8. They are generally free, though accepting one might carry political repercussions.
By shear number the most tracti are produced by House Flambeau. The house holds gatherings every four years. The majority of these tracti are simply an explanation of some particularly noteworthy event the author has taken part in-and are left on file at Castra Solis to be read by nobody. At the same time, members of house Flambeau know whom the best writers are. Flambeau writers tend to focus or somewhat obscure subjects like mastery of combat spells, Parma Magica and Penetration. At the same time, the orders best texts in Creo, Ignem and Perdo have been produced by the house. The leading text on Corpus was written by a root cutter in house Ex Misc. If you want to trade lab texts, the Flambeau tourney is the place to go.
The majority of Tracti are between levels 10 and 12. Sound tracti are normally not Cow and Calfed and sell at two pawns each, or can be traded for a tracti of equivalent quality. A new tracti might trade 2:1 the first couple of times it is traded.
Tracti of between levels 12 and 14 (Great Teacher and Com +3 to +5) are often Cow and Calfed. These still sell for two pawns of vis, but the author hopes to realize a vis income from selling copies.
Approximately half of all circulating tracti are either commentaries or in a Florilegia. An additional 10% are commentaries bound into a Florilegia.
The most valuable tracti in the order come from a magus known as Varus whom had both Essential Trait Great Writer +6 (+7 in later years) and a supernatural ability to give works he copied a +2 resonance bonus (quality of 17 or 18). A Varus tractus cannot be clarified. Nor can a Varus original gain an additional resonance bonus. A Varus original costs around 20 pawns of vis and is valued as a collectors items, not on the basis of the extra XP it gives.
Thank you so much for that AMAZING answer. I feel like I owe you 2 pawns of vis (would you take Vim?).
Also keep in mind what I call cheap scribing- for example I have a scribe with a skill of 7 in scribe, he should be able to scribe 13 levels per season.
UNLESS he has a source book whose quality is above minimum for sound- say level 17 quality 13. This gives a L+Q of 30, between 28 and 31, but you can copy 3 times as much (39 levels) in a season if it is copied at quality 12. Still a sound summae, brings in just as much vis per copy, but now instead of having to wait 2 seasons for it to be copied, 2 can be churned out in a single season.
Also note that the Roots (those well-known L6Q21 primers) are likely chapbooks, and sell "for a nominal fee" - ie, you can probably purchase the entire set for a pound of silver, if that. (Or whatever "nominal fee" means IYS - that's the cost according to the Covenants book.) They're the one set of Hermetic books which come closest to being mass-produced.
The Branches (ie, the next set up from the Roots) - usuallyy aren't bought or sold, but instead are considered graduation gifts or "atta magi!" gifts from more established covenants to younger groups.
And I would suggest that there's likely a L3Q30 Summae of Artes Liberales out there - a "Prince's Primer", if you will. if we assume that's the most common thing a non-hermetic will write about.
Finally: books can be edited - or at the least, "glossed", by a writer that has a higher COM than the original author, for +1 quality. (Serf's Parma). So it's possible to eek out that last point of quality if you've got a good editor nearby who is willing to spend a season on it.
That's ... your saga's assumption. In some of the sagas I've played in, magi would've been literally willing to murder for even one of those, let alone the whole set.
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Same here. They are regarded as very good books, so they sell for a HIGHER price than the average book (even higher level ones). What we introduced is that there are SEVERAL primers for each Art, since writing those books is not that difficult for experts, so they are not that expensive but they are still more expensive than a book of say, L8Q10.
I thought you didn't use summae... 