Summoning at Character Creation

Not. They are rolled Char + Art + Realm or Area Lore (Goetics) or Char + Art + Faeric Rank (Fabulosa), then it's clear that they aren't accelerated Abilities but another type of Arts. In any type there aren't limit about the initial Score on them. Rules say it.

And then realm lore are arts and abilities aswel?
It does not make sense...
I prefer not to try any system. The rules are done without it, and they don't support any.

There are other formulae that use arts and regular abilities combined. Or all of them together. The philosophiae formulas come to mind.

Xavi

Of course. I mean that the Ars Goetia and Ars Fabulosa aren't Abilities, but a Different type of Sobrenatural Arts. Some Hermetics can add too some Abilities in their Magic or Lab Work (Normally Magic Theory in the last, some other in the Casting), and some other wizards too. The Arcane Abilities have mystical uses after all. By that, they say clearly when there are a Accelerated Ability or one Mystical Art.

You are essentially conflating "can" and "must." Try going by the final statement since the two examples don't quite cover everything: you cannot use an Art by itself. Even in the case of Certamen you need to be using two Arts, though this seems to be an exception. Thus:

  1. The Goetic Arts must rolled with other things added, so they are Arts.
  2. Realm Lores can be rolled with other things added, but they can and normally are rolled without others added, so they are Abilities.

Chris

Another question:
The RoP: Faery says that exist another Summoning version, but Magical with effect over magical beings and spirits. But there are not any Spirit or Magic Rant, then what ability should be added to the Casting total? The Realm Lore? The Warping Score? A total based upon Magical Sobrenatural Virtues?
The text is textually:
Page 131 "It is possible that there are other versions of this Summoning power aligned to the other realms, wich similarly facilitate bargains whith magical, infernal, or divine beings instead of Faeries [...]"
The Casting Total is: Presence + Summoning + Faery Rank + Aura
How do you adapt those version?
(The easiest version is the Infernal, because it exists a Infernal Rank to Infernalists)

I think they are just refering to the Summoning presented in RoP:I.

What's really curious is the Summoning version tought by the Cult of the Earth presented in Sundered Eagle, which permits summoning Spirits and Elementals associated with Terram.

No, that's not my understanding. "Art" is part of a verb-noun system - that's why it cannot be used by itself, but that's not the defining property. You can't use an ability "by itself" either, you need to add Characteristic, and if it's a supernatural ability then aura too... The defining part is whether the thing is used in a noun-verb system or not. The fundamental components are "Characteristic + Ability, Characteristic + Art [i.e. Technqiue] + Art [i.e. Form]", with more modifiers (e.g. Magic Theory/Lore) not changing this classification, and one "cannot use an Art by itself" because it is always used in TeFo whereas an Ability is used "by itself" in the "Char+Ability" formula.

Thus,

  1. The Goetic Arts are used individually, each Art being used alone (even if with other Abilities), so they are Abilities.
  2. Realm Lores are additions that don't matter to the basic classification of whether this is a "Characteristic + Ability" or "Characteristic +Art + Art"; they are added modifiers on top of this basic mechanical distinction.

Also,

  1. Methods and Powers are Arts. A Method cannot be used alone - it has to be used with a Power (and vice versa). The basic mechanic is "Characteristic + Method + Power", i.e. "Characteristic + Art + Art".

This is the line's official position, as I understand it. Again, however, I think this choice of nomenclature is mistaken. The terms "Art" and "Ability" interact with other rules (like Virtues or book-writing rules) based on their expected value, which corresponds to their XP-cost (e.g. Puissant granting +2 or +3). This should hence be the fundamental mechanical distinction that matters. How the Arts/Abilities are used is a mechanical distinction that other rules don't really address, so it doesn't matter rules-wise. In other words, it is better to retain the "confusion" about how a given Art or Ability is use ("sometimes your roll Characteristic + Ability, sometimes Characteristic + Art..."), as this allows one to retain great consistency with the rest of the rules.

I think you're probably right. I made the wrong call, and now we're stuck with it.

The Goetic Arts, however, break all the rules for mechanics style for the line, so they shouldn't be used as precedents for anything, or as evidence when trying to understand what "should" be done.

In both cases, a different decision in the first place would have been better, but trying to change things now would be even worse than the situation we have.

I think that there aren't problem, after of all, it's magic.
But I my Faery Summoning question stills being valid. The Texts talks about others three versions limted to those Realm. Any sugestion?