Swords of Silver and Moonlight, again

This spell was discussed - among other HOH:TL spells - in this thread:

And I'd like any further comments or help with this.

It's a spell my nacromancer would like to learn and use, so I'm not trying to talk it into a higher level or even illegal. I'm just trying to see if there are grave problems with it.

Why is the target Ind? You affect all metal eqiupment, shouldn't this be Part? Or even Group? And can a Group even affect a collection of parts of an individual? Is it Ind because the entire gear is seen as one thing? Or is it because it gives the ghost (an individual) the ability to turn his gear solid, akin to a power many ghosts posses?
Why does it have a Terram requisite (I know the guidelines say this), shouldn't it rather be a Casting requisite, where the caster can affect the body (Co), wood (He) or metal (Te)?
But making these changes would easily turn the spell into a ritual, and thus a lot less usable.

Should it be +2 magnitudes to affect metal? IMHO, no, because it does not affect metal. It just makes 'ghost metal' solid, like metal. Adn there is a tradition for a Te req for this. The high guideline base level needed to turn a mind or insubstantial thing solid already takes care of what the end pruduct is. Look at The Silent Vigil MuCo(Te), it does not feature a +1 mag for affecting stone compared to the base guideline of dirt for Te. The Guideline is already high enough to make this change (but would it be harder to turn into metal?), higher than for changing into an animal - which is easier because it is closer to human and therefore less unnatural I believe.

It doesn't require the +2 magnitudes for metal simply because it isn't a terram spell. If it had required a terram effect that with the metal adjustment became higher than the mentem effect, then it would be a terram spell with this adjustment.
The use of a terram requisite is probably due to the original inventer's design. However, to have a spell that could affect metal/body or wood would probably be +1 magnitudes due to flexibility.
A ghost's equipment is part of said ghost, so a good argument could be made for it having to be target:part. However, it could also be argued that the orginal inventor was clever enough to bypass the requirement - and so this version of the spell does not require it. If you reinvent the spell to avoid the Terram requisite, you might well have to change it to part.

Btw - since spell design is a personal experience, if you feel that your magus would consider something required to work, then it is required...

If the Terram requisite is somehow excluded in the redesign, I would personally rule that while the weapons would become immune to wards against Metal, they would be stopped byt wards against ghosts.


I would accept that te target is the ghost, not his equipment. So Individual works OK for me.

It is a spell that makes the ghost able to affect the world. The fact that the equipment is metallic is irrelevant. it is etheral substance made solid. The actual material is not really important. No metal needed.

I also agree that this would not be stopped by reTe wards, but ReMe wards would stop the attack. In a sense, is like making the ghosts into corporeal nightwalkers.


Ghosts do not have equipment - items do not die-and-leave-ghosts (except in WtO, but who ever actually played that?).
The weapons and armor - clothes and items that a ghost seems to posses and wield are parts of that ghost.
If the Target is Ind, shouldn't the whole ghost be turned to dirt/metal?
If magic isn't intelligent, there's no way for the spell to seperate out the equip-stuff without target Part.

And yes, terram is probably a requisite here for it's aspect of "solidity" not "metal".

The whole ghost is able to affect the material world, not only his equipment. His equipment just come with him. :slight_smile: This is why I said ther eis no need for metal: it is "a ghost substance sword", not a real metal sword. It hits and hurts like a metal sword, but it is made of aether, or whatever ghosts are made of.

The spell can affect the whole ghost, not necessarily only his equipment. Individual works OK if you do that. :slight_smile:


Obviously ectoplasm. :mrgreen:

This makes a lot sense - at least more sense than I got from the spell before this.
IMHO the spell is purely Mentem, the equipment isn't turned into metal, it just allows the ghost to affect the real world.
So the attack by a weapon is resisted by Mentem not Terram, and the Penetration is for the spell cast. The ghost isn't made completely solid, so the vivtim can't affect it by other means than Mentem. That's how I see it and intend to use it.

Why could it not be that any part of the ghost that is thought of by the ghost as metal (that is - affected by terram, since this is the requisite), is made into real metal? This is the way I'd be using the spell, in any event.

It could be like that, we dont know. But consider a ghost - with no equipment or props, because none are integral to the person it was in real life - with the power to affect the physical world with it hands and body. Said ghost would then be as physical as any other person, and thus suddenly affected by corpus for physical effects. Then it wouldn't IMHO be a ghost anymore.
I don't see Swords of Silver and Moonlight as making some ghost props into metal per se, just allowing them to affect the physical worls, as if they were metal. And I don't think the Te req. is necessary, because then you'd need a lot of different versions of this spell for different forms, if the ghost had a wooden staff, wanted to use his hand to pick something up, have his pet cat interact, pour water from his canteen etc. I could accept a casting req. though.

Also, I think the guidelines are off - IMHO it should be easier to make a ghost solid enough to affect the real world (after all, some can and do this by themselves) than making a mind into a solid, physical thing. Which I quite frankly see little use for. All in all the spell becomes almost impossiblæy high level a- and a ritual - if you need tp include all sorts of requisites. Or require you to use up to a handful different Form versions.
If it was a lower level to begin with, then things would be different.

In the Medieval Paradigm ghosts aren't neccessarily incorporeal. I remember reading as much in the RoP Magic book. That and that the Armies of the Tremere are maybe even Airy Spirits.

So maybe Ghosts are some sort of etheric/protoplasmic/(paradigm approriate) manifestation and the terram requisite means that a simple ward vs ghosts won't actually keep out these weapons, in the same way a corpus ward won't keep out weapons wielded by the animated corporeal dead. (Pg 98 RoP Magic)


And what really is the difference between these entities:
*a ghost.

  • a disembodied spirit of Mentem.
  • an Airy Spirit of Mentem.

And if the Terran req. means a ReMe won't ward against the ghost's weapons - then I see a point with it.
But what does it take for the human target to interact with the ghost's sword? Is it already physical enough to parry with a normal sword, because of the Te req? Or does the victim's sword need a MuTe(Me) spell?
And this is just if the spell in question is used, to allow the ghost to use all his gear. If most ghosts are able to use their favoured weapon regardless, then this effect is warded against by ReMe but no normal sword can parry it, right?

If it can affect the physical world, the physical world can affect it. So a shield would parry the ghostly sword with no problems. This is that way (at least how it would work IMS) if it has a Te requite and also if it does not have it.

Otherwise it would be another power: a touch range damaging effect used by the ghost. The fact that he hits you with a ghostly sword would be cosmetic. In that case it would bypass a shield

For me the spell is like the Half Taltós virtue of Hedge Magic, only working the other way around.


Half Taltos? Page reference please?

Section: Nightwalkers. Virtues and Flaws.

Upper right part of a left page. Books at home, so can't give a better reference right now.

It is an ability that allows you to recite a short litany and you gain Second Sight and the ability to beat the hell out of ghosts and other incorporeal lurkers for a minute with a favoured weapon of yours. It is a weapon prepared by you to be able to do that.

What you (and the spell) suggest is basically the same, only that it works for the ghosts wanting to beat the crap out of the physical dude :slight_smile:


I was trying to answer this, but I realized i waas so heavily paraphrasing roP: Magic (p. 100 and 115-116 mostly) that I was close to breaching copyrights. It's actaully fairly clear cut.

RoP:Magic has some good definitions, but what is missing is what the Re- and PeMe spells affect. If ghosts are a subcategory of magical beings associated with mentem, then Coerce the Spirits of the Night and Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit are a lot narrower than say Re- or Pe Au spells to affect Airy Spirits of Auram. You'd need other spels to affect the entire spectrum of Me beings. But most other elemental forms only have one type of being to affect and thus only one type of spell. This is going off topic now, so perhaps it is time to stop.