Thanks, but I'll keep forgetting it 
Yes, I remember something about the volume built being dependant on the mason skill, like Mason 5 doing twice Mason 10.
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This is so similar, I feel awesome 8) 
And the award for "Simile of the Month" goes to...
Out of town and offline until Tuesday.
I don't understand. What's blocking the "Lost Boys" thread?
I am, I'll get it moving.
However, I think I'm waiting for attacks rolls for Brionne for round 2? If not, I'll catch it when I get to it (probably tomorrow).
There's a discussion of Spell Mastery with regards to Rituals in the Ars forum.
https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/spell-mastery-and-ritual-spells/6698/1
I've made a number of comments, and I believe I had been clear on my belief here, but the interaction with jebrick leads me to conclude that I either haven't been clear, or that discussion is buried somewhere and too much trouble to hunt for.
I'm looking for troupe consensus to go one way or another. I think I make it clear that a Mastery ability score of 1 in a Ritual doesn't allow one to avoid the risk of botching Ritual spells, and it's RAW. I ask all players to give considered answers to this and keep in mind that I'm not advocating we go by RAW. I'm saying what I believe RAW is, and it aligns with what I've always understood. I have no vested interest[1] in this decision.
The choices are ritual spells are always rolled with a chance of botch, unless a combination of mastery and virtues drop botch dice to 0, or a Mastery Ability score of 1 in a ritual allows one to cast a ritual in a relaxed[2] manner.
[1] It alters Apollodorus' reluctance to cast the AoH spell a bit, doesn't make it consistent within the framework of the saga to date, but it's a minor quibble.
[2]Note relaxed manner is open to some level of adjudication at the time the ritual spell is cast. I typically have given a lot of latitude for relaxed as it relates to formulaic spells. I probably won't be quite as lenient with allowing the player to determine whether it is relaxed, and if the matter is contentious, I'll put it to the entire troupe before deciding.
I was firmly in the camp of "Ritual Spells are never Relaxed" when I started the thread (and boy did I open a can of worms, there). But I've been trying to watch and follow the responses as best I can without zoning out like I've found myself doing in the Great Might Soaker Debate over yonder.
But having the rulebook definition of Ritual Magic as being "like formulaic magic, but..." on p. 81 pointed out got me to thinking. Yes, four paragraphs further down it says that "they are always cast using a stress die," but that's not necessarily the same as being a stressful situation, since "some stress rolls cannot botch."
I'll reread the thread again, with the rulebook handy, to confirm, but right now I'm leaning toward Ritual Spells, like Formulaic Spells, are normally cast with a Stress Die and the attendant possibility of botch; in a "calm situation" there are no botch dice (p. 81).
So, if you're trying to cast Incantation of the Body Made Whole on your turb sergeant during a battle, that would be a stressful situation; trying to do so back at the covenant in the chirurgeon's chambers would not. Casting Aegis of the Hearth under normal circumstances would be a "calm situation," whereas trying to do so when you have a diabolist plundering your library at AC range and you're in a race against time to get it up before he robs your library blind, that would not.
At least, that's my current view.
My main concern with a looser view, as an SG is that it gets into the realm of a situational negotiation. Honestly, it's very unlikely that anyone will ever cast a healing ritual in battle. Maybe they'll cast it and there's an impending battle, and the magus knows it. So the magus claims that he's relaxed, and the SG and player have a discussion about it. It becomes more of an SG fiat thing, which I really hate as a player and as an SG.
I think a lot of botch risk can be mitigated. Get a familiar, strengthen the Golden Cord. Master the spell a couple of levels, and you can knock off a bunch of botch dice. And, I'm not against including some different mastery options that mitigate botching better than the existing rules. Those are completely reasonable house rules that foundation close to RAW but allow HRs to modify the effect.
I guess I do have a dog in this hunt, I don't want to be accused of arbitrarily deciding that something is not relaxed, and there for has the risk of lots of botch dice.
My comments in the thread are just to point out the illogical point of your argument. which is why I said it was rules lawyering. Taking what you want from one section but ignoring other parts because they may disagree with your argument. Since the relaxed state is determined solely by the SG there is not much to discuss. If the SG says that there is no relaxed state then so be it. My point is that there COULD be because Ritual spells are like ( i.e. follow the same rules) as Formulaic spells except where noted. In that case you COULD have a relaxed state for a ritual spell and have no botch chance.
As a side question...If the mage are using Wizard's communion to cast AoH and there is a botch, does just the caster roll the botch or all wizards involved?
First, continuing to argue with me about this here, whether I am right or wrong, and as I say I could be wrong, I don't presume to have all the answers, isn't really fair. I've made my ruling, I'm not changing MY mind, and you're splitting hairs, because I'm offering the troupe a chance to not enforce what I believe to be correct. We can (and should) agree to disagree on my understanding of Ritual Magic and botch dice, I'm letting your statement in Ars forum go unchallenged unanswered, and will do the same here. I'm not going to continue to engage on what is logical or not; it's irrelevant, I've made my decision. I think I've been extremely clear that I've made my decision, and now is the time to decide what to do based on my decision, and that is up to the troupe.
It is now up to the troupe to make a decision on whether they want to play with my understanding, or if they want to adopt the Mastery Ability 1 mitigaes botch dice and allows relaxed casting rule. In this case, the rule isn't important to me, it isn't central to the story. I had built some of the constructs of this story (Apollodorus not casting the Aegis) based on an understanding of the risks of a ritual spell. He's gone now, so the issue is moot. It no longer impacts the story I want to tell. So the players can decide. I really don't care, but some of the players might care, and if they do, you need to convince THEM, not me.
This needs a consensus, and my contribution to that is, that while I understand the rules for Ritual spells and botch dice to be a certain way, it is entirely appropriate and reasonable to let the players decide how they want to handle the issue, now that the saga is ongoing, and I didn't explcitly state my understanding at the outset. Consensus doesn't mean I have to agree with your understanding, it means, that I'm willing to compromise what I understand for the benefit of the groupe.
I may be rules lawyering, it's kind of an occupational hazard, though I'm not a lawyer.
If the caster of the Aegis double botches, yeah, everyone communing is checking for Twilight, if you don't adopt a Mastery ability 1 mitigates a botch ruling.
I have no problem with going with the down-one-die-per-level-of-mastery-and-stuff ruling for Ritual Spells.
Part of me almost hopes we botch something...I've never had a magus do Twilight before, could be fun. ("Wow...look at all the funky music!") deadpan British humour
I wasn't really following the discussion (here or elsewhere) on the Ritual magic botching/mastery. But, I will abide by whatever decision Jonathan has decided.
For what it's worth, my feeling is that any spell involving vis (whether formulaic, spont, or ritual) is a stress roll. Further that levels of Mastery reduce botch dice, so that even if the botch dice are reduced to 0 it is still a stress die (but such a die used to be called a Quality die in previous editions). Finally, additional pawns of vis cause for possible additional botch dice just by the difficulty of using them. So in most cases a Ritual is a stress roll with a possible botch, as the minimum amount of vis involved is 4 pawns (20th level is minimum Ritual level) and thus you'd need Mastery of at least 4 to completely reduce the botch dice from vis alone, never mind other factors that might contribute botch dice. I believe all of these examples are straight from the book (though I don't have my book with me)
But again, having not read the arguments, if what I said above differs from Jonathan's ruling, I'd still defer to Jonathan's ruling.
Just for clarity, since this is about consensus, not about tyranny of the majority, if the troupe decides to go with Mastery of a Ritual spell allowing relaxed casting, are you ok with that decision? That's the real issue, and this goes for anyone who answers subsequently. It's not what you believe to be correct, it is whether you can play the other way.
If you could just clarify what relaxed casting means by your interpretation please. Just a one liner of what you mean.
Can't do it. You guys decide it. Part of the problem I have with the approach is I now have I adjudicate every die roll to see whether it is appropriately relaxed. About the best I can say is this: without the threat of impending doom would be relaxed.
If the Mastery ability 1 rule is agreed upon, I have no problem with a player not applying this individually to themselves, i.e. the player deciding this ritual I'm doing is going to be a stressful situation. Players, individually can choose that all their ritual casting will be stress die, with the exception of if they are leading Aegis of the Hearth or casting a ritual on another player. Those will be up to me, generally. Players make a case for botch or no botch if I say it is stressful.
OK, i see the conundrum.
Then for my money, there are no relaxed Ritual spells. At best, if you have sufficient Mastery levels you could potentially reduce all the botch dice to 0 meaning if you rolled a 0 there could be no botch, but you would also add 0 to your spell casting total; that would be the worst you could do on a Ritual spell if you had a very high mastery of it.
Ritual Spells IMO are just too difficult, too lengthy, and involve vis. Thus they are always stress rolls, but a high mastery could mitigate the amount of dice.
This wouldn't apply to Formulaic spells unless cast with vis or stressful situations, but even in stressful situations, a little bit of mastery goes a long way as botch dice (barring vis and foreign auras) are usually 2-3 at most.
Yeah, that's not up for debate, that's my interpretation, it's my ruling, my understanding.
What is up for debate is whether we HR that Mastery Ability score of 1 in a ritual spell allows relaxed casting. That's the alternative position. And if you don't agree with that HR being correct is irrelevant, it's whether you want to play with that ruling.
I don't agree with a ruling where 1 level of Mastery makes a ritual non stress. I could play with it, but I don't agree with it. So I don't think we should HR it.