Yeah, that was probably not written clearly as I would have liked (I didn't sleep well last night, and I'm having kind of a foggy day today).
What I meant was that, even if it's decided that, by the rules-as-written, you only need a score of 3 in Latin (i.e have spent 30 xp on the skill) with a Specialization in Reading or Written to give you a de facto score of 4, that I'm okay with a house rule stating that you need a base score of 4 to read and 5 to write in a language, not counting any Specialization.
I would not be surprised if most magi don't have a higher effective score when writing than with speaking, simply because when you're writing you can take the time to think about what you're saying, you don't have to overcome the social effects of the Gift in communication that you would normally take when speaking (which, via "slippery scope" could be argued as imposing a -3 penalty to any use of Language skill in person).
Speaking from experience, I'm a better writer than I am a talker, because I'm shy, I have three different speech impediments to work around, and I tend to talk faster than I think sometimes.
I know that. And this is exactly why I find so unrealistic that people would to casually let a mere apprentice read from a book they themselves are susceptible to need.
And I insist, this is even discounting the Turbulences that may appear, especially because of that same stress.
Well, I must say, I fail to see what's the point of having a specialty in a language (and every published character to date has one) if this doesn't mean that you're best within your specialty area.
Note also, in the corebook, everyone has Latin 4, but, with the exception of the Criamon (Enigmatic Terms), the Flambeau (Insults), and the Jerbiton (musical terms), all the magi have a "hermetic terms" specialty. What does it mean, save that they have mastery of a special technical vocabulary that allows them to act as if their language skill was 5 for hermetic-related things?
Also, of these, only the Jerbiton has Latin 5.
Oh. Now there, I am surprised.
I was searching Magi of Hermes for scores in latin to see how it was treated, thinking I'd see magi staying at Latin (hermetic usage) 4 (like Gwidion). And... see p6-7. Alexander of Jerbiton has Latin 4 (writting). Same thing for Conscientia p26-27.
Not that it's writing, not written
Yeah, that's me IRL.
To say what I'm writing would require me to struggle with my tongue, and I would probably have some pronunciation issues. For exemple, I never hear schedule before this year, so I had no idea on how to pronounce it.
Of the 12 "generic" magi templates in the core rules and the sample magus (Darius of Flambeau), none have Latin 5 – even the Bonisagus, who has Latin 4 (Hermetic technical terms).
Of the ten magi in the Tribunal books, Hervé filius Evrard (Lion and the Lily, p. 110), Phillipus Niger (Guardians of the Forest, p. 59) and Imanitos Mendax (ibid., p. 73) have Latin 5.
Of the five magi in Semita Errabunda, only Moratamis, Follower of Guernicus and Tillitus of House Bonisagus have Latin 5.
So, 6 out of 28, or about 21%, have Latin that would allow them to write books – including just one of the three Bonisagus, and you would think that if any of them would have to have Latin that would allow them to write books, it would be the Bonisagi.
For the 12 generic Magi templates, I'm going to add this statement that precedes them tempaltes
From that statement, and because every template has a Latin score of 4, we, or at least I can presume that it's the intent of the authors that an ability score of 4 is necessary to read. A latin score of 5 is simply not necessary unless you're far enough long in your career that you want to write, or your magus has an intention of writing.
I may be able to move stories forward more quickly. We had a huge storm roll through WV yesterday, knocked our power out, so I'm at work, working while awaiting for power to be restored. Pray the heat doesn't get into triple digits again and/or their our power is restored.
See, now this is why I hate summer. Even here in NePA, it's close to 90° F/32° C. Luckily we have window air conditioners in the rooms we use the most, but still not fun.
I was checking through the House rules on Aegis in light of the fact we can now cast a more powerful version, and found this.
I really hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, but is this part still in effect?:
Isn't this one of the sticking points that was going in Arya's campaign with the events inside Blackthorn? The need to penetrate I'm clear on though, or at any rate I'm looking up the various posts on it to refamiliarize myself with it.
JL, can you verify that the Aura has become Rego-aligned? This means that it is effectively doubled (Aura 10) for Rego-related work? V will be enchanting ReTe for the last two seasons of 1223.
I believe that's Fixer, Peregrine and the RAW voting for "written/writing" as a valid specialty. Who else do I need to convince?
And I hate most people complaining when it ain't sunny, when, when it does gets sunny, these same people complain about the warmth.
I each time tell them "it ain't sunny, that's great, we can breathe!"
Not exactly, Arya had to do some contortions to get to the point where the Aegis would knock down Parma, allegedly because of a plot point she couldn't work through any other way. This may be inside baseball, but since not all the participants are active in that saga, she had to engineer a way for Heims to lose his Parma and be affected, but not Cygna. I was told this directly, via PM.
My House Rule is up front, has been that way from the beginning. I'm willing to revise the whole knock down the parma thing. I read it somewhere but can't seem to find it right now.
I'm not interpreting Peregrine's vote for your idea of writing/written being a valid specialty when he said:
You need to convince everyone that Living Language (written) with a score of 3 is valid to be an effective 4 and allow reading of the associated language. I understand that real world language learning is poorly implemented, but I'm going to remind everyone that books are rare and valuable and illiteracy is the rule, not the exception. I really dislike the idea that someone can write a book with a language score of 4, if their specialty is written/writing. It isn't supported anywhere within the rules, and Peregrine's research also confirms that almost all magi have an initial score of 4 in Latin so that they can read books. Latin 5 is only necessary if you're writing a book. I'm willing to let it slide on correspondence, but if you try and compose a bound volume from those correspondences I'm going to impose a penalty. If you want writing/written to be a valid specialty, and it allows a magi with a base score of less than 4 to read or less than 5 to write, you need to convince every player in the saga of that. Whether we call it a House Rule or RaW, it doesn't make a difference to me, it's my decision. Consensus requires the consent, not necessarily the agreement to your point of view. Some may not care, some may care but are willing to "go with it." And there's me, you have my consent, if everyone else consents. If no one voices an opinion, I'm saying they haven't given consent. I believe that's jebrick and qcipher.
As it is now, my ruling is: For languages, a base ability score of 4 is necessary to read in that language, to write a base ability score of 5 is needed. Specialties do not apply to the ability to read or write.
I kinda hope not (if nothing else, because I don't recall anyone's parma dropping during the whole summer of '22 brouhaha.
But my main sticking point with how Arya ran it was the fact that there was no mention or house rule about it before it happened, it was just "Oh, by the way, your Parma goes down because you don't have a casting token." Followed by the absolute lack of a workable mechanic ("It's kinda like a ReVi ritual but not really, I just compare your ReVe lab total to the Aegis's penetration and if it's not big enough it goes down, except I don't feel like figuring your Parma lab total every time, so I'm just going to say it goes down every time," followed by, "That's how it's going to work, and if you don't like it, I quit." So it was as much about the attitude and the making-it-up-on-the-fly as it was the actual house rule, for me.
But, yeah, I'm hoping that parma might go down isn't the case, but I will give JL credit for putting it in the house rules before it came up and having a workable mechanic for it.
The Aegis effect was only 4th magnitude. MR 20 is pretty easy to get to in Vim. Regardless, we can waive it. I remembered reading it somewhere, but it was long enough ago that I can't remember where, and if it brings us close to reliving something we'd rather not, I'm fine with that...
About that whole language thingie, I hate that specialties doesn't apply.
This makes no sense IMO, especially given all these magi that have "hermetic usage".
So, instead, since 4 and 5 are the minimum levels, why not HR that way:
Specialties apply
Magic being quite technical and requiring a precise and extensive vocabulary, you need final scores of 5 and 6
I'm also more comfortable with these levels given the skill descriptions:
4 Functional. You can hold a conversation on non-technical topics, and make few mistakes. People do not normally need to repeat themselves. This is the minimum level required to study from a book.
5 Fluent. You still have an accent if this is not your native language, but it is weak. You speak as well as most natives. This is the minimum level required to write a book.
6 Elegant. You choose your words well, and have no accent if this is not your native language.
Especially as it was a effect cast on every PC. Did you know why this, as opposed to the "I just needed some PCs to be unaffected"?
Boy, am I glad I no longer play in GF...
Yes yes yes yes. Including the JL bit.
Although JL is putting a new light on this: It seems this wasn't a "secret" rule she hadn't disclosed before, nor was there any clear idea behind it.
It looks like just "I want Hiems to be affected and not Cygna. That means I must drop his parma. So I'll just have the Aegis dispell it". And when faced with it, she scrambled a tentative explanation.
I agree with JL on writing: 4 to Read, 5 to Write and specialties do not allow one to bridge the 4 to a 5.
Regarding Parma knocked out by Aegis, that's one that we shouldn't have IMO. The Aegis came after the Parma and was based off the groundbreaking work of the Parma, plus the goal was to bring wizards together with some trust and safety. That being the case, I don't see how they could have accomplished this if they'd get their Parma knocked out by a powerful Aegis. Going to a Tribunal would be like walking into a potential deathtrap. It's not that I can't see how the Parma would knock it down or suppress it, it's just that given the two discoveries' purpose, it would definitely be at cross puposes for one to knock out the other. Basically Trianoma would see the Aegis and say "it's wonderful", and then when it knocked down the Parma would say "Back to the drawing board" where it would be fixed to avoid knocking down the Parma.
That's just my idea with it. Considering who made these discoveries, and the amount of time and effort put into them, I think it could be reconciled for the parma to stay up and only be knocked down by a Perdo Vim affect.
It was secret and not known about before hand, my discussion with Arya was ipso facto. The deed had been done, and I was trying to help her out of a jam when she said it was a major plot point of the saga and all. I said there are other ways to do this, and because I knew some stuff about the saga, I felt I was in a position to help her. She was...unresponsive to alternative ideas to achieve the same effect, that had a much less impact on the cosmology of her saga. shrug Done is done.
I've been especially clear, don't like a ruling or rule, the table can change it. I need to know if everyone doesn't like it/want it/doesn't care about it. So, jebrick and amul have to chime in (maybe Peregrine, I'm not sure where he stands). Qcipher just made his vote known. Don't make your arguments to me, or even in response to me, because I'm not changing it unless everyone else agrees.
That kinda pisses me off a little bit, that her story required Hiems to lose his parma but not Cygna, and she had to scupper everything up to make it happen.
