Table Talk - Development

[MTKnife]

In addition to the Familiars discussion, I've been thinking of creating a Companion who's a Magical Character (all those RPGish capital letters!).

So...it looks like we're settling on a base Might of 25 for the "standard", fairly independent familiar, with 15 for an "extension" familiar, and something higher (whatever the sphinx ends up with, I guess) for a really powerful but really independent familiar.

What should the base Might for a Companion be? Mark suggested 15 (the book's guideline). I'm hesitant to make them less powerful than familiars, especially since they'll be less able to earn XP's (they won't benefit from the magus-familiar bond). I can though see some players giving them a lower Might just to make it easier for them to earn XP's.

How about a Magical Grog? 5, or something higher?

Thoughts?

Scott

[YR7]

@GIJoo

Oh of course not, but I meant that would help binding your Spirit Familiar to use the shared senses bit.

Yeah, I got Penetration 3 for that, but forgot to add it up when calculating the penetration total.... I think Marko is right and I can do it with significantly less Arts. Now, the guidelines say that Te+Fo should equal Might for me to be "accepted", so even with a focus I strictly need Re 20 and Vi 20 - but I'm hoping my silver tongue (read: SG courtesy) would allow me to sail through on lesser Arts...

[Vortigern]

@MTKnife

In addition to the Familiars discussion, I've been thinking of creating a Companion who's a Magical Character (all those RPGish capital letters!).

So...it looks like we're settling on a base Might of 25 for the "standard", fairly independent familiar, with 15 for an "extension" familiar, and something higher (whatever the sphinx ends up with, I guess) for a really powerful but really independent familiar.

What should the base Might for a Companion be? Mark suggested 15 (the book's guideline). I'm hesitant to make them less powerful than familiars, especially since they'll be less able to earn XP's (they won't benefit from the magus-familiar bond). I can though see some players giving them a lower Might just to make it easier for them to earn XP's.

How about a Magical Grog? 5, or something higher?

Thoughts?

Scott

If you are interested there are 'lots' of spirits of relatively high might scores that are available in Ludovico's entourage for anyone to play.

[Vortigern]

YR7,

My suggestion is to focus on the Daimon type of theurgic magic and take full advantage of your Mercurian Magic as well as taking Hermetic Sacrifice, to be able to use them cheaply/regularly. That way you can bring such rule-bending quasi-non-hermetic stuff to the table that you have a unique feeling 'niche' in a group where there are already two other vim characters, one of whom is also spirit-magic focused. We can both broaden out into each others respective areas of spirit magic later. Be afraid Marko.

I wouldn't worry about having a Parma of 6 if you already going to have a spirit familiar of might 30. Not if you are worried about penetration on your daimon spells as is. You should be investing in True Names and your Daimon Spells, IMO. Parma is for people who aren't getting their MR from somewhere else and who want to go out and fight things toe to toe, rather than send spirits out to squish things.

Marko has his own perfectly valid build/design ideas, but I think he frequently forgets the 'niggling details' that empower some other tracks of thought and design.

[MTKnife]

Does no one have any thoughts on the Might of magical companions and grogs?

Scott

[YR7]

Alrighty, new character at https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/character-sheets/2829/28
His stats at gauntlet are here, and his advancement to season 80 is here.

I've lowered the Arts and increased Abilities as requested. The only Abilities not "up-to-par" are Martial ones - he ain't going to do much dirty fightin'.

The great liberty I've taken is to assume he has access to lots of lab texts. He spent one season (10 XP) in service to the Cult, and in return was granted access to standard Hermetic spirit (not Heremtic Theurgy) lab texts for three seasons. He also used a lab text for Gift of the Bear's Fortitude and his Vilano-clone spell (Tearing the Flesh of the Mother), supposedly from his parens or magi he managed to befriend in his travels. This means he only actually developed from scratch his two Invoke the Pact spells and the three powers invested into his Talisman and Familiar.

Another major liberty is the assumption that his familiar, the Matron, agreed to bind as his theurgic spirit familiar despite the fact that he's a bit short on Te+Fo (which is 40 instead of 60 - but the 60 is only a "guideline", not a harsh rule).

I assumed his familiar (+5 Int, 0 Magic Theory) aided in instilling the powers in the familiar bond, but not with other lab totals.

To stay on the safe side, I assumed a separate spell is needed to return an airy spirit to his demense (once it is summoned elsewhere). I set the base level to 15, the same as summoning him from his locale using an arcane connection (its name).

I assumed only 1 Warping Point per year, as he bears no Longevity Ritual.

I did not apply the -1 Encumbrance penalty due to his staff - still waiting on a ruling whether a wizard's stuff is indeed encumbering.

As part of his makeover, Propolos now has 10 allies in his entourage. I assumed Agency rules on their number, even if they would be actually played when summoned (which I don't foresee happening that often). I provided brief statistics on all, but this is just off the top of my head - anyone feel welcome to change them, and I may do so myself.

I could always find what to do with more XP, and this Art-deprived version of Propolos has a bit less oomph, but I'm happy enough with the character as-is. So if there would be no further critical feedback - I'm ready to begin the game Marko.

[Marko_Markoko]

Cool. I will kick things into a higher gear by this time tomorrow

[MTKnife]

@Marko Markoko

Cool. I will kick things into a higher gear by this time tomorrow

What do you want to do about his staff and Encumbrance? If it's Encumbrance for anyone else, it should apply to a magus as well, though maybe it depends on whether it's carried as a walking aid or as a weapon.

Scott

[GIJoo]

Personally I don't think a Staff should really add to encumbrance, but that's just my two cents.

[GIJoo]

@YR7

@Marko Markoko

Do note, though, that Second Sight must also penetrate. I will double check, but I am pretty sure that is the way it works.

I take Joo's "nope", and raise it by +1. Edit: A favored House Rule of mine is that InVi Might-detection spells don't need to penetrate too, unless the beastie has a particularly deceptive nature (a Faerie whose "shtick" is to disguise as a mortal, say). It just makes more sense that you can sense the Might 50 godling more easily than you can the Might 1 lesser airy spirit. If you agree to this house rule, I could go all Hermetic, as I wanted to initially. However, that's a House Rule. Under RAW, InVi spells need to penetrate....

The idea is to work differently. But again, if that's a problem, I'll go conventional.

I really like this. Personally, since Second Sight doesn't need to Penetrate I don't think that InVi should have to. Especially given the high levels of said InVi spells...

[GIJoo]

@MTKnife

In addition to the Familiars discussion, I've been thinking of creating a Companion who's a Magical Character (all those RPGish capital letters!).

So...it looks like we're settling on a base Might of 25 for the "standard", fairly independent familiar, with 15 for an "extension" familiar, and something higher (whatever the sphinx ends up with, I guess) for a really powerful but really independent familiar.

What should the base Might for a Companion be? Mark suggested 15 (the book's guideline). I'm hesitant to make them less powerful than familiars, especially since they'll be less able to earn XP's (they won't benefit from the magus-familiar bond). I can though see some players giving them a lower Might just to make it easier for them to earn XP's.

How about a Magical Grog? 5, or something higher?

Thoughts?

Scott

First of all, sorry to like what, triple post?

I'm with Mark on this one, 15 seems good to me. I'd say 15 and Summer. As for Grogs... 5 and Summer? As for being less powerful than familiars, yes and no. Is a Might 15 Creature as strong as Cadoc or Vort / YR7 familiars? No. Is it stronger than other Familiars? Yes. I think comparing familiars to companions is a bad idea. Take for example the Familiar of Niger and compare it to that of a Magi 5 years out of Gauntlet...

[MTKnife]

@GIJoo

I'm with Mark on this one, 15 seems good to me. I'd say 15 and Summer. As for Grogs... 5 and Summer? As for being less powerful than familiars, yes and no. Is a Might 15 Creature as strong as Cadoc or Vort / YR7 familiars? No. Is it stronger than other Familiars? Yes. I think comparing familiars to companions is a bad idea. Take for example the Familiar of Niger and compare it to that of a Magi 5 years out of Gauntlet...

I'm not sure you address the part of my post where we've decided that 25 is the "average" familiar for this saga--the three you mention would constitute half the saga's familiars. In light of that, how does your answer change? And how do you address the fact that familiars can get XP's more easily?

Scott

[MTKnife]

@GIJoo

Personally I don't think a Staff should really add to encumbrance, but that's just my two cents.

What's your reasoning?

Scott

[GIJoo]

@MTKnife

What's your reasoning?

Scott

Well if I remember correctly he's mentioned that he would be using it as more of a walking stick of sorts. To me, if he's using it for support it makes no sense to add it as encumbrance.

[YR7]

@MTKnife

I'm not sure you address the part of my post where we've decided that 25 is the "average" familiar for this saga--the three you mention would constitute half the saga's familiars. In light of that, how does your answer change? And how do you address the fact that familiars can get XP's more easily?

Scott

I am new to this saga so I don't its power level, but I suspect Might 25 characters would not outshine the magi, so would make for fine Companions, while even Might 15 would be small-potatoes so Grog status would fit well enough. However, Might NA (i.e. mortal) characters can be companions and grogs too, so I see no real point in setting down Might guidelines for either class. There could be a Might 5 Companion, or a Might 20 Grog. Just design a character to work with the saga or characters, not to fit some preordained Might guidelines.

@MTKnife

@GIJoo

Personally I don't think a Staff should really add to encumbrance, but that's just my two cents.

What's your reasoning?

Scott

I'd just reiterate my own - I would like to see old, wizened magi wielding staffs, not avoiding them like the plague. A staff is iconic. The old man leans on it, it helps him - it doesn't hinder him and weigh him down.

Perhaps a wizard's staff isn't a Great Weapon? Perhaps it's a lighter walking staff?

I'll be fine with applying the -1 Enc penalty, but it just strikes me as absurd that a magus is penalized for choosing the iconic wizard talisman. I see wizards, especially old guys with white flowing beards and so on, as wielding staffs - not puny wands or butterflies or whatever so as to avoid Encumbance.

[MTKnife]

@YR7

I'd just reiterate my own - I would like to see old, wizened magi wielding staffs, not avoiding them like the plague. A staff is iconic. The old man leans on it, it helps him - it doesn't hinder him and weigh him down.

Perhaps a wizard's staff isn't a Great Weapon? Perhaps it's a lighter walking staff?

I'll be fine with applying the -1 Enc penalty, but it just strikes me as absurd that a magus is penalized for choosing the iconic wizard talisman. I see wizards, especially old guys with white flowing beards and so on, as wielding staffs - not puny wands or butterflies or whatever so as to avoid Encumbance.

OK, how about this? If he's using it as a walking aid, no Encumbrance, but if he's using it in combat, whether to defend himself physically or to wave it around casting spells, it encumbers. In one case, it's supporting his weight, but in the other case, he's supporting its weight. Unless someone attacks him while he's casting with it, forcing him to Dodge, Encumbrance doesn't come into play.

Scott

[MTKnife]

@YR7

I am new to this saga so I don't its power level, but I suspect Might 25 characters would not outshine the magi, so would make for fine Companions, while even Might 15 would be small-potatoes so Grog status would fit well enough. However, Might NA (i.e. mortal) characters can be companions and grogs too, so I see no real point in setting down Might guidelines for either class. There could be a Might 5 Companion, or a Might 20 Grog. Just design a character to work with the saga or characters, not to fit some preordained Might guidelines.

How about I take the approach of figuring out how many points of Qualities I need, and finding Might backwards from that? After all, if I keep it low, the character has more prospects for advancement (believe me, Personal Vis Source is starting to look like a good Virtue, though that should really annoy the magi once they discover such a "waste" of vis). Unless the character plans on magical combat, I'm not sure how important the Might score is, and I can always use Improved Powers to boost Penetration if necessary.

Scott

[Arya]

@MTKnife

OK, how about this? If he's using it as a walking aid, no Encumbrance, but if he's using it in combat, whether to defend himself physically or to wave it around casting spells, it encumbers. In one case, it's supporting his weight, but in the other case, he's supporting its weight. Unless someone attacks him while he's casting with it, forcing him to Dodge, Encumbrance doesn't come into play.

There's no reason a magus can't enact enchantments in his talisman while leaning on it.

[MTKnife]

@Arya

@MTKnife

OK, how about this? If he's using it as a walking aid, no Encumbrance, but if he's using it in combat, whether to defend himself physically or to wave it around casting spells, it encumbers. In one case, it's supporting his weight, but in the other case, he's supporting its weight. Unless someone attacks him while he's casting with it, forcing him to Dodge, Encumbrance doesn't come into play.

There's no reason a magus can't enact enchantments in his talisman while leaning on it.

That's certainly true. However, he might always want to cast spells through it, in order to gain the attunement bonuses--that would doubtless involve waving it around, in order to complete the necessary gestures.

Scott

[Vortigern]

@MTKnife

@YR7

I am new to this saga so I don't its power level, but I suspect Might 25 characters would not outshine the magi, so would make for fine Companions, while even Might 15 would be small-potatoes so Grog status would fit well enough. However, Might NA (i.e. mortal) characters can be companions and grogs too, so I see no real point in setting down Might guidelines for either class. There could be a Might 5 Companion, or a Might 20 Grog. Just design a character to work with the saga or characters, not to fit some preordained Might guidelines.

How about I take the approach of figuring out how many points of Qualities I need, and finding Might backwards from that? After all, if I keep it low, the character has more prospects for advancement (believe me, Personal Vis Source is starting to look like a good Virtue, though that should really annoy the magi once they discover such a "waste" of vis). Unless the character plans on magical combat, I'm not sure how important the Might score is, and I can always use Improved Powers to boost Penetration if necessary.

Scott

Personally I don't favor any kind of preset might scaling. Just do what feels realistic and reasonable in regards to your creature and the magus it will primarily be interacting with. For example Ludovico can easily summon might 40/50 type spirits. For him, a spread of creatures that fall at or sometimes a bit below that ( for some 'far' below that depending on their purpose/role ) are what is 'realistic'. Because that is what he can summon.

For another Magus who isn't a summoner, the 'scale' shifts dramatically and is obviously based on different things. If you are talking about a social compact with some kind of might creature, I am all for it. And I really don't care what the might score is, as long as it makes sense in the roleplay for that creature to be around, and it comes off well. You could build yourself a might 30/40/50 drake/dragon for all I care. If you have something smaller in mind, then do what you have in mind. Just bear in mind the declared/desired 'high' power level of the saga. I'd say for most magi a might 30 critter is just fine, unless they have some kind of niche role that makes something bigger reasonable. A Merinita that is all about doing stuff with faeries or a Flambeau that just -had- to have a Griffon to ride... whatever.