Table Talk - Development

[Jonathan.Link]

The requirement is vaguely defined, probably for good reason.

@Ars Magica 5th Edition

The Peripheral Code contains a\ substantial number of rulings on the relationship between a magus and his apprentice.[...] A magus must personally teach the apprentice for at least one season per year over the course of the apprenticeship, and the season spent opening the Arts counts as the first of these seasons.

I take this a bit further, when taken in the context that the Arts may only be taught one on one, to mean that you teach your apprentice one season per year, one on one (for every season you claim to be teaching your apprentice). I think it's the spirit of the Code, if not explicitly stated in the Code. There is some reason to think that teaching two apprentices in one season might not constitute proper training.

@Ars Magica 5th Edition

Since an apprentice without a Parma Magica would normally suffer a –3 penalty to all totals due to the effect of The Gift, the Order has ruled that failing to extend your Parma Magica to cover your apprentice during training is a violation of the requirement to train your apprentice properly

Teaching two students at one time results in the same SQ as teaching one apprentice not protected by Parma...

[Pralix]

HoH

@Jonathan.Link

I take this a bit further, when taken in the context that the Arts may only be taught one on one, to mean that you teach your apprentice one season per year, one on one (for every season you claim to be teaching your apprentice). I think it's the spirit of the Code, if not explicitly stated in the Code. There is some reason to think that teaching two apprentices in one season might not constitute proper training.

Indeed, "The arts can only be taught one on one" (HoH:TL 17). No matter whether this means legally to apprentices, or at all: It means that two apprentices cost 2 seasons per year.

[Jonathan.Link]

@Pralix

Indeed, "The arts can only be taught one on one" (HoH:TL 17). No matter whether this means legally to apprentices, or at all: It means that two apprentices cost 2 seasons per year.

No, it doesn't mean that two apprentices cost 2 seasons per year. It means if you are teaching Arts, then it costs two seasons per year, but a master can teach things other than the Arts during the required seasons of teaching and have the apprentices spend their time reading books to learn the Arts. This would satisfy the letter of the Code (as stated in the core text) of teaching personally, even it it means you're teaching 2 apprentices personally, but not necessarily the spirit of the Code. Where it's not the spirit of the code, is that teaching without Parma is mechanically the same as teaching two students at the same time, and there is also the restriction that one can teach Arts only in a one on one environment.

[Pralix]

Not according to that passage in HoH:TL

[Jonathan.Link]

@Pralix

Not according to that passage in HoH:TL

That statement is only about the Arts, it's not about the other things that a magus can teach an apprentice, such as Latin or Magic Theory or any other Ability. Everything that follows in that paragraph presumes that it is only the Arts that are taught that would take up all of a magus' time. But I'll take it as another sign that "teach personally" leans towards a one on one interpretation, but again, it's not explicitly stated that teaching personally is the same as teaching one on one. That is a requirement of teaching the Arts, and not of teaching anything else.

[silveroak]

As an example, if Fleur were to grab two apprentices, teach them magic theory while using their assistance in the lab for 2-3 years, she could teach them in the same season (with the gentle gift and her own place she wouldn't even have to extend her parma), and at the end of that time gift them to other magi. She might be charged with a low crime, or possibly be challenged to a wizard war or two, but it certainly could be done. Of course she would be better off borrowing them from someone who was willing to let her have them for a couple of years...

[Marko_Markoko]

Jonathan, you know I always favor a view that favors the players. None of this "implied" or "it suggests" or any of that. You can have three apprentices! Spend a season with each one, have the elder teach some to the youngers, give them books, and you are all set.
There are ways to pull it off. But I doubt it will ever be an issue. Debating about it is pedantic and has no bearing on the game at hand.

[Jonathan.Link]

Eh?
Spend a season with each one, as in three of your 4 seasons per year? How does that "favor the players?" You're saying exactly what I have been saying that the Code requires on on one teaching to qualify as "personal" training. Players may well find that personal training is satisfied by a magus teaching his three apprentices an ability in one season, and then sending them off to read a book in season two, while seasons 3 and 4 they are his lab slaves. But your statement of spend a season of each is probably inconsistent with what favors the players...

[silveroak]

In theory, if you allow raining to count as teaching, you could have 4 apprentices and simply rotate which one was being trained. Of course you might find some bonisagus trying to take one of your apprentices in that case... or someone else wanting to charge you with a low crime to take one.

[Marko_Markoko]

You could juggle five or more. Teach Arcane Abilities in groups, provide them texts, get your familiar and filius to help you out, all sorts of tricks.
And there is no "oversight committee" checking to see if you are teaching your apprentice(s) in just the right way at just the right pace. It is usually the end result at Gauntlet people see.
Having said that, extremes like having seven apprentices all at once may incur the scrutiny of your peers.

[The_Fixer]

@Jonathan.Link

@The Fixer

I still remember one guy arguing that no, his combat magus with Int +3, Per +3, Qik +3, Sta +2, Com +1, Pre -2, Str -3, Dex -3, didn't take dump stats

Never said that, Fixer. I recall the conversation, too. Of course, I'd design the character differently now.

Strange, I don't recall saying your name 3 times...
But does this mean you'd agree that this is taking dump stats?

@Pralix

• "law" Pralician: keeps her anti-scrying motivation, takes harmless magic (Pe can't do permanent damage) to explain why she doesn't PeVi
  (...)
  This build also involves getting either deficient perdo or harmless magic to explain why she uses vilano spells.

I fail to understand the fixation on screwing Perdo Vim.

First, just because she's a pralician, she doesn't have to focus on any on these arts, harmless magic or not. I mean, she doesn't need to be crippled to neglect these, or focus on vilano
Secondly, even if she focuses the hell on Perdo Vim, it is still useless against mundanes, and there may be times when she can't penetrate, in which case using the School of Vilano can come to the rescue.

As Invisible Sling of Vilano is only (IIRC) ReTe 10, it's quite easy for her to be both proficient in Perdo Vim and skilled at finesse-based attacks, should you wish so. Although I figure it's a little late now.

@Marko Markoko

Antonio and his daughter was role played out in 4th edition way back when.
It is a generational saga. When I an 70, I'll buy a copy of 9th edition and start Andorra again, push back the timeline of what who did what when and use you guys as backstory :mrgreen:

I like this
Another idea would be to do a prequel, like "Mythic Andorra", telling the tale of the first founding of the covenant, before it was rediscovered. Maybe with a more primitive Hermetic Magic, but buckloads of Vis, a lot of beasties and faeries around, a much more magical world.

@Pralix

Miguel, the Beastmaster Companion, rough draft

Like him.
And Arachné will love his abilities over animals. This means we can have some kind of spy network / early warning system

@fightmaster

You may be a magnitude short on The Flying Log (...) Fixer, can you take a look at this?

Basing this on the Flying Carpet in tC&tC, we'd have:
ReHe base 3 (maipulate item made of plant products, exactly the same guideline as ReAn 01 used for it), +2 very unnatural motion, +1 carry person on carpet,
+1 speed, meaning total level 15 before taking duration into account.

@Pralix

I tried to make it a perception specialty. It's when you observe a group and realize that the CEO is not the real boss, but that the secretary and the janitor really run the show. Seeing who works with whom and has how much power.

This sounds more like a Folk Ken specialty to me: Intrigue seems more active.
Anyway... "Hierarchy"?

@Marko Markoko

Having said that, extremes like having seven apprentices all at once may incur the scrutiny of your peers.

And that's assuming you can find them in the first place, which usually takes at least one season per apprentice: You can easily waste 2 years finding them in the first time T-T
All that to have 7 children roam near your books and laboratory experiments shudder Some will revel in this, but for Arachné, it'd be hell

[Prince_of_Boredom]

@fightmaster

@Marko Markoko

And mind you, at the current point in time, Carmen is the only one qualified to open the Gift (not concerning herself with Supernatural Abilities, since her apprentice would be a classic School of Delendos Creo Flambeau.

How are you defining 'qualified'? Vocis and Arachne have the Arts for it, though Vocis can't take another apprentice until Mica is Gauntleted.

Also, Solomon's primary short-term goal is to get his Arts to a point where he can take on an apprentice right after CoB. With Book Learner, it shouldn't take him too long. And with his rather good InVi total, he could pretty much open anyone, even with multiple supernatural abilities and let them keep them.

[Pralix]

Can my characters spend all or some of their 2nd cycle at Andorra, quiet and unobtrusively before emerging for adventures in the present?

Advantages:

• I could also start personalizing her lab before the game starts (what is the strength of Andorra's aura btw?), which may be fun
• I could start with a presonalized lab
• no lengthy introduction scenes
• characters can start with local area lore/languages (without using cheap biographical tricks)
• I don't have to find a reason for the family to move the whole clan there at the start of the game and can simply make their move part of the honeymoon
  (I plan 4 kids for them:
  - Miguelito the teen who is going to be apprenticed by someone else - volunteers wanted,
  - twins (gifted or ungifted: one of them volunteers for abduction so he can become an evil twin),
  - a little girl who will eventually become Cata's apprentice (she'll have some supernatural abilities, which will make opening her arts a real challenge even for a Pralician)

Disadvantages:

• she can't ask stupid questions about Andorra's past
• it may seem odd that she has done nothing for Andorra in years

[Pralix]

Is finesse affected by the aura a character is in?

[Pralix]

I could buy the warrior (living at a covenant), educated (failed apprentice, lab slave) and well-traveled virtues (outdoor guy, taken across Europe by a bjornaer magus), and it would make sense when I look at his biography, but spending some xp to gain more xp feels odd. Is this really general practice in this game to reach the normal power level? So far, this character is made without that shortcut to a strong character.

He has no area lore atm, because I’m not sure when they get to Andorra. Taking 15xp from MT to give him a local area lore is easily done though.
What quality weapons does he have access, too. He has no special virtue, but his wife can Rego Craft high quality weapons quite easily because of her high Per + finesse total of 9 or higher (mass produce them and allow him to pick the best).

Miguel, the Beastmaster Companion character, detailed draft
He’s a guy that can call animals, and talk them into helping him. He’s also Cata’s significant other. They met when she was an apprentice and he was prepared for apprenticeship. She wanted to help him, but ruined his gift. His master left for Ireland with him and used him as a super-shepherd and lab assistant. Together with Cata and his animal friends, he killed the magus and founded a family with Cata.

Characteristics: Int 1;per -1, Str 1, Sta 1, Pre 1, Com 1, Dex 0, Qik 0
Size: 0
Age: 35(35)
Decreptitude: 0
Warping Score: 0(1)
Confidence Score: 1(3)
Virtues and Flaws: Failed apprentice; Summon animals (major), alluring to animals, Animal ken, Puissant Animal Summoning, inoffensive to animals, Puissant Animal handling, tough, True love (Cata); dependents (children), Magic air (good his wife has a parma), carefree, oversensitive (cruelty vs animals), weak characteristics, incomprehensible
Personality traits: Likes Animals +3, True Love (Cata)+3, easy-going+1, Brave+1
Reputations: -
Combat: depends
Fist:
Short Spear:

Soak: +4 (+7 with clothes improved by his wife)
Fatifue and Wound levels: normal
Abilities (45xp childhood + 600xp life = 30 years * 20xp; 20xp spent on virtue true love, rest on abilities):
75 Animal Handling (leadership) 5+2
70 Animal Ken (talking about humans) 5
15 Athletics (lifting) 2
15 Awareness (animals) 2
5 Bargain (Animals) 5
30 Brawl (fist) 3
15 Charm (family) 2
15 Chirurgy (animals) 2
5 Folk Ken (magic users) 1
15 Guile (magic) 2
30 Hunt (cover tracks) 3
15 Leadership (children) 2

• Occitan(Catalan, animals) 5
  5 Order of Hermes Lore (failures) 1
  30 Ride (horses) 3
  30 Stealth (forest) 3
  5 Swim (river) 1
  15 Teach (children) 2
  5 Artes Liberales (astronomy) 1
  50 Latin (Hermetic) 4
  5 Magic Lore (beasts) 1
  30 Magic theory (assistant) 3
  30 Single Weapon(Short spear) 3
  70 Animal Summoning (speedy arrival) 5+2¬
  15 Profession: scribe (hermetic) 2
  30 survival (mountains) 3

Equipment: sturdy clothes (impenetrable silk if near wife), short spear, excellent horse, second horse with packsaddle (animal food etc) and 4 dogs, 2 ravens, writing tools
Encumbrance 0(0)

Special Items: Longevity ritual lvl50 paid for by his wife (Cata), consumed at 35.

EDITED: because of fightmaster's comments

[fightmaster]

@Pralix

Advantages:

• I could also start personalizing her lab before the game starts (what is the strength of Andorra's aura btw?), which may be fun
• I could start with a presonalized lab

You'll be able to have a personalized lab with just one season of prep. Marko's house rule.

As for the rest, my personal preference would be to have her arrive in-story. It helps set the tone for who the character is and how the other characters view her. It's also only fair that you get to go through the judgement of the council just like our other recent additions.

[fightmaster]

@Pralix

I could buy the warrior (living at a covenant), educated (failed apprentice, lab slave) and well-traveled virtues (outdoor guy, taken across Europe by a bjornaer magus), and it would make sense when I look at his biography, but spending some xp to gain more xp feels odd. Is this really general practice in this game to reach the normal power level? So far, this character is made without that shortcut to a strong character.

I'm kind of Marko's unofficial Munchkin Police. I have no real authority, I just raise objections and people either listen or ignore me as they choose. That said, I think the character is at a good power level as-is.

Virtues and Flaws: Failed apprentice; Summon animals (major), alluring to animals, Animal ken, Puissant Animal Summoning, inoffensive to animals, Puissant Animal handling, tough, True love (Cata); dependents (children), Magic air (good his wife has a parma), carefree, oversensitive (cruelty vs animals), weak characteristics

I count 11 points of Virtues (including Failed Apprentice) and 9 points of Flaws. Did he acquire two Virtues during his cycles?

75 Animal Handling (deal making, leadership) 5+2
70 Animal Ken (talking about humans, deals) 5

I think we only get a second specialty in languages, not any Ability at 5.

5 Bargain (Animals) 5

Typo?

[Pralix]

@fightmaster:
Thanks for the quick reply.

@fightmaster

hat said, I think the character is at a good power level as-is.

I'm okay with the power level as it is- just wanted to point out a potential loophole.

Ups, I only wanted him to aquire one virtue (true love), and that hasn't been paid for yet (I think. I'll doublecheck the math). Ah, I forgot incomprehensible!

I think we only get a second specialty in languages, not any Ability at 5.

ok:
Animal handling (leadership)
Animal ken (talking about humans)

Typo?

Indeed!

Changes will be edited in!

[Marko_Markoko]

exactly everything I was gonna say

[Marko_Markoko]

@fightmaster

I'm kind of Marko's unofficial Munchkin Police. I have no real authority, I just raise objections and people either listen or ignore me as they choose.

Oh, it is official. I have told people as much. Fixer is Rules Shark, Silveroak is now Story Squid, and you and Solomon are my Prawns of Balance