Table Talk - Development

Yeah, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to either. If you couldn't, then we wouldn't be able to have items like Stormbringer in Ars, and that would seem to be a terrible oversight to me!

Just for the record: this. is. AWESOME!

Most excellent :smiley:

On another subject, I am considering decommissioning several characters of mine...

  • Draganna Tesla: Though she is cool, I really don't play her much and the time I have I would rather spend on other characters & stories and on game maintenance. She is too major to be merely a background character.
  • Johan VanHalen: Much the same as Draganna. And I have elevated Carlos to be Roberto's Companion.
  • Allen & Wen: I just want to close out their story, ship them off to Gascony to raise a family.

I have a concept I have been considering- a Verditious maker of musical instruments with the sorcerous music initiation who would also be (long term plans) pursuing the concept of becoming a Verditious mystagogue. Still working on why they would be looking specifically to Arans (aside from wanting to avoid politics), but I thought I should see if this is something others would be interested in seeing in the covenant before I went further with building it.

As far as I can tell, yes.

Yep. 100% raw and legit. I have that mmf in another saga and one day might go that route too.

There needs to be a caveat here. Remember the level limit for formulaic spells becoming rituals is any spell greater than 50th level. This means one is effectively limited to the Base 40 (no more than +2) for D: Sun or Base 45 (no more than +3) for D: Concentration, of course, both of these are presuming the R:Personal, and T:Individual. It would also work fine in a Talisman, which does allow R:personal effects to affect the caster so long as they are in contact at the moment of casting.

For enchanted items, the level can go beyond that as long as the effect uses no other ritual restricted parameters (Momentary/Instant, Year, Boundary). You can also enchant it in stages, increasing levels and various characteristics, gaining a lab total bonus for each investment sharing an Art. Be like Goku. Learn the Ko-Ken attack first up to x5, then go all Super Sharkman as you evolve further.

That's an interesting interpretation. My understanding is that if the R/D/T parameters push an effect into the ritual level, it can't be put in the device. Note, that the language in that part of the item creation rules is ambiguous, It would help if the language said T:Boundary or D:Year items instead of long durations, large targets or major effect. Certainly the raise a stat by 1 to no more than +5 is a major effect (it's above 50th level by itself).

If the uses per day or penetration or any device parameters push the effect level above 50, I agree, it should be allowed in the device. Otherwise, it's trivial to create a device that casts BoAF at sight range or greater, against hundreds and thousands of individuals (T: Group, Size: +1 and more) Is there a canonical example of someone putting an effect into a device, that when cast as a spell would be a ritual? I know you don't hold to canon, necessarily, and this is a high powered saga where such devices might exist, I was asking as a more general question.

p. 98 of the core book "Enchanted Device effects may have a level over 50, as long as there is no other reason for the spell to be a ritual..."
what is ambiguous about that?
As to major effect I believe that is referring to things like making permeant items or instant and enduring healing.

What are the reasons for a spell being a ritual? You left off the qualifiers. Does a spell of the same (major) effect at the same duration and the same target become a ritual?

The reasons for a spell being ritual is a level over 50th level, which can be caused by a combination of base level and range/duration/target parameters. That's a spell. As far as an enchanted item, you have additional parameters such as linked trigger, fast trigger, uses per day, penetration and others I can't think of off the top of my head. I think it's perfectly reasonable for modifications related to the enchanted effect available because they are in an item can drive the level above 50th level and make it off limits. As I demonstrated, it becomes trivial to create the Wand of Ball of Abysmal Flame which works at R: Sight, T: Group, Size +1 which makes it a 55th level effect as a spell (it would be a ritual as a spell) but becomes easily possible within an enchanted item.

Ignoring the qualifiers makes them meaningless. Like I said. If the effect is greater than 50th level, because of things related to the enchantment, sure, it's reasonable and makes sense.

And to your point about major effect, perhaps, but then again, it could be talking about the +5 guideline which on its own level means it is a ritual, before factoring in any spell parameters.

The enchanted item rules allow an item to contain ritual effects if - and only if - the spell is a ritual because of its level (i.e. level 50+). So the wand example you cite is a perfectly acceptable item. The more detailed rules text makes that more clear:

"In general, enchanted devices may not mimic the effects of ritual spells. There is, however, a single exception. Enchanted device effects may have a level over 50, as long as there is no other reason for the spell to be a ritual, such as long duration, large target, or major effect."

What these rules are discussing are ritual only spell components. For example, year duration, boundary target, or the creation of permanent things via creo (major effect). Those you cannot put into an enchanted item; they are, without further exceptions (e.g. Hermetic Architecture), ritual only.

I should note that the wording of the rules makes it clear that, when discussing the effect level 50+ exception, that they are not talking about uses per day, linked triggers, et al. Those are added after an item legal effect (level exception rules included) is designed.

There are certain Ritual only R/D/T's. We all know them, and agree that this is not what we are talking about. We are discussing the "Major Effect" clause. Now a +4 bumps in right at level fifty as a base. I would like to rule that this squeaks in safely just within the limit. A score of +5 is base fifty-five. That raises a red flag. I myself could let it slide, since a +5 is still within natural human limits. But not everyone would agree that it does not constitute a "Major Effect".
I put forth two arguments to allow Acutus to let it slide on +5...

  • His current Strength is already +4, so that is the minimum effect he could benefit from.
  • Constant or over use of the effect will cause Warping.

Counter Arguments...

  • He has other stats he can boost in his quest for the perfect human form.
  • He can put the effect in a familiar bond.

Bjornaer magi don't have familiars.


How about Acutus firstly recognises that a effect level 55 is ritual, and works on other stats first. He designs effects for a few of the other stats, and you say he's learning something a little unqiue along the way. Then when he comes back to Str he's gained enough insight from the other stats to handwave the level 55 for +5? It makes Acutus delay gratification, makes it an achievement, and explains why he's able to bend the rules a little. Getting all +5s would be a huge investment/achievement.

Yeah, the lack of a familiar really hurts. I'm really feeling it now as I start to work through my lab totals.

Because of that, it actually looks like I'm going to have him experiment with the ritual versions of the spells, just because they actually have lower spell levels than non-ritual versions (which is a little counter-intuitive to me). My goal is not necessarily to have him cast all of them and get all of his attributes to 5, it's to develop enough original research points in order to reach his goal of achieving the "inner human" mystery. These are just the only spells I can think of that make sense for that original research.

Now, my next question, that I never really considered before, is...once he successfully develops the "inner human" mystery breakthrough, does that also imply access to the "Refining the Inner Heartbeast" mini-initiations that Bjornaer with an inner heartbeast can do to improve their inner heartbeast, but using that script for his "inner human" or is that something he would also have to develop through OR?

imho it relates to a Bjornaer-ish pathway, but I'm not sure what the implications of linking it to the mystery path really are.
O.R. is brutally time consuming and could be used for such a much bigger scope. This feels house related.

If he would be interested, Fleur wants to pursue similar spells, we could cooperate for one season and then the assisting mage would get the lab notes for their own development. If he is wanting to boost enough stats we could even take turns on this...

I'm being send again into training from wednesday to friday, so don't expect me to post then. This should get more or less back to normal next week.