Well, it seems Scot has two yes votes so far, Scott and JeanMichelle. Oh, JeanMichelle, do not worry if Scott and I act like dragons. We are both Berklisters, and it is in our nature to be argumentative and hostile. It means we like each other 
I think there are ways to get what you want without adding a whole regio - it just doesn’t sit right with me. I think Mark’s suggestions are quite reasonable. Another way is to simply describe it as what you want and not take the mechanical benefit of it, or house rule the split level thing, or whatever.
That’s how I feel. If everyone else is cool with it, though, I guess I’m cool with it too.
Actually, the regio itself was what I originally wanted--it's just cool to have a lab in a regio. The rest of it was just trying to figure out how it would all work, and why it would be lying abandoned in the middle of the covenant.
There is one minor benefit to having a lab in a regio that hasn't been brought up yet: using Arcadian Travel, Viola can travel directly to and from her lab. However, it's not like there aren't other regiones nearby she could do that with.
Scott
An armor of virtue instead of a sword, then.
And if it is "of virtue", it ain't. But if I enchant it, baring some rare exceptions, yes, fluff-wise, it has a spirit bound to it 
Oh, no, don't bother, I'll just pile on damage, I think.
It's just that, I prefered to have, say, 4-5 little fire darts soaked separately than a bigger one (more difficult to soak, but with potentially lesser penetration). Visually, I can design my "bigger" spell to look like 4-5 fire shafts.
To me, it seemed like a fair tradeoff, but I prefered to ask as there's no ruling on this. This is not a big point.
loooool
I think I badly expressed myself.
I just meant that the wings support me, they don't give me the power of flight, with me flying "carrying" them on my back. Destroy them and I fall T-T
Think Icarius, but mixed with Automata and Magic.
Something like this: chloeyingst.blogspot.com/2008/02 ... -fish.html
In fact, I find the idea of a verditius crafting himself a set of mechanical wings, however fantastic their appearance may be, to be much more "logical" and coherent than yet another Legion Ring of Flight
Yup.
So long as the effects are cosmetics only and do not go contrary to the spirit of the virtue, I see no big deal here.
I don't really understand the problem here, and I fear that I am quite an awful rule-lawyer 
The only non-raw thing he gave himself is the superior aura, and, IMO, this is equivalent to other free laboratory virtues, and, moreso, utterly negligible compared to the uber spontaneous virtue you gave him. I find it very strange, as the second will probably have muuuch more impact on the game. It feels like talking about brass knuckles after handling him a machinegun 
I understand the concerns, though, especially as the closest RAW thing is a major covenant boon. I'd say charge him at most a minor virtue for this, and let's get done with it.
If he really wanted a +2 bonus to lab activities, he could just have taken something like Flawless Equipment (A free lab virtue)
Allow me to quote the virtue. A free one, btw 
Regio*: The interior of the lab is in a regio, and there is another regio level, which the owner can navigate easily. If there are further regio levels, this Virtue may be taken more than once. +3 Size, +1 Warping.
No mention is made of any covenant regio. Your lab is just in its small pocket regio
This, IMO, is the real deal! This tree scares me!!! And I destroy what scares me 
Hum... Here's a way to please everyone.
Change the lab a little so it's outside the covenant grounds, in the +2 aura. like, an old building with the tree in it and all.
Give him a level 4 and 5 faerie aura, et voila! Absolutely no problem whatsoever! 
Exactly. IMO.
Oh yeah!
Oh, btw, I noticed a funny thing while designing my character: Form-specific spells are sometimes almost as usefull than vim spells for command spells, wards and all.
I mean, I can create a Vim wards against demons, that'll protect me against Fire Demons, Corpus Demons... but will be useless against the Fire giant a Ward against Fire entities would have protected me against.
It seems most people are cool with it, maybe a few reservations. Kind of like Boxer's Diedne magus! (That is a joke dude, I know you have no Diedne in you).
Okay, how about this. Regio is a +1 Virtue. It grants you your aura and size the way you want it (thus leaving you two slots), but you take one additional point of Warping because you have a two layer regio. Just make it bend the other way a little bit and I am happy. As I said, it is not a power issue. It is an issue of unforseen implications and the troupe's opinion. If they are all cool with it, then I have no issues.
Then we get into that matching Realm and Form thing again. You can use Mentem the same way as Vim for spirits. All intelligent disembodies spirits count as Mentem.
Don't you like my "outside regio" idea? 
I do. Does Scott?
The increased aura isn't in the description of the Regio Virtue, but it is in the rules as written for regiones, which state specifically that a regio level has a higher aura than whatever's beneath it.
The Major Boon, though, has the entire covenant inside the regio--this is a 500-square-foot room. It's not quite the same thing as either of the Minor Hooks concerning regiones, either.
If it's going to be a Minor Virtue, I think it needs to be better than giving a +1 Quality and +3 Size at the expense of +1 Warping and -1 Safety.
Yes, we could put it outside the castle walls, but I think it makes a better story inside, and it does create a potential Story Hook, which is a good thing. It's been there a long time, but because of its connection with the creation of the regio, the magi are scared that...something will happen if they just chop it down. Antonio sends Viola to investigate, and she discovers the abandoned lab. If nothing else, she can point out to Antonio that chopping down the tree may have unpredictable effects on her lab, perhaps even destroying it.
Then she bats her eyelashes at him and weeps a little, piteously.
So if the Size is potentially a problem, what's the best way to deal with it?
Scott
The Virtue as written already has a two-layer Regio--and +2 Warping, with the Faerie Ingredients on top of that (making it +3) is getting to be a pretty big nuisance. If you make it a Minor Virtue, you're giving me something worse than the RAW and charging me more for it.
You don't think the -1 Safety from the combination of Awkward Shape and Well Insulated is enough? And that on top of the three Free Flaws that come with the regio? (They add up to -3 Safety, -3 Aesthetics, and 3 points of specializations--+1 Mu, +1 He, and probably +1 An). I mean, it's not like I took Regio all by itself....
Scott
Um...if I put it outside the castle walls, can I take Idyllic Surroundings? How would we explain the building's being there in the first place, though? And if the building isn't more than just the one lab, there's no courtyard, which would imply a different kind of regio.
Scott
I figured Idyllic Surroundins means either you are outside the walls, or you are along the edge and have a huge window. I mean, who (besides Antonio) wants to look into the inner courtyard to watch men in martial training (as that is what our men do almost constantly).
I don't understand why we would have a tower part of the castle that is separate from any wall. It screws up bailey space. We need that for mock battles and jousts. Do that, and I will coopertae about the aura/regio spike.
I wasn't going to take Idyllic Surroundings before (it's a Free Virtue); I was taking Natural Environment (a different, Major Virtue). Yeah, I know it's confusing with all the similar-sounding stuff.
I'd thought about Idyllic Surroundings before, but as you said, it won't work inside the walls: the description literally says, "The lab is located some way by itself." Natural Environment doesn't have that restriction, though, so it would work with each version of the regio.
Idyllic Surroundings could work outside the walls, but only if there's somehow a view of the outside from inside the regio--the upper level, if it's still a natural environment of some sort, might have that view itself, but the lower level, if it's a conventional lab building, would need to be able to see the outside, through the windows; I suppose a regio could work that way.
It wasn't part of a tower, but part of one of the interior buildings--I'm pretty sure castles usually have a number of interior buildings, including, in some cases, a keep. Magi have an obsession with living in towers, but that's not how the occupants of castles usually live. Here's a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://suna.biochem.duke.edu/panther/scarborough/html/index.structure.html
Of course, this all depends on how big a castle you're talking about.
I'm not committed to the idea of an outside-the-castle regio, but if you'll agree that being outside the castle defenses makes up for the extra size, I might go for it. In this case, the story would be that the original occupant planted his lab in a faerie aura, and the whole building disappeared into it. The mundane and upper levels would then be groves (walled by trees) rather than courtyards. The ivy would still be present, especially in the lower regio level, in the building, but it wouldn't play as central a role, and there'd be no single pine in the center. On the one hand, the lab would be vulnerable outside the walls, but on the other hand, the vast majority of potential attackers wouldn't even know it was there. Some of those (anyone capable of using a faerie trod) could reach the regio through Arcadian Travel, whether or not it's inside the castle walls (so yes, having a regio inside the castle adds a vulnerability, but the Arcadian Travel rules seem to imply that such regiones exist all over the place, since you can use AT to get to any mundane spot through a regio, and it's quite hard to get into a high-level regio using Arcadian Travel, unless you're very, very skilled, or unless you have an arcane connection, and it's especially hard if you've never seen the place before; it goes without saying that you need to know it's there first). A possibility is to have a smaller regio inside the castle to give Viola a "backdoor" for emergencies.
Incidentally, starting out from a regio doesn't in itself aid Arcadian Travel (I was wrong about that earlier), but the aura does add to the roll, as would be true of spellcasting in the lab (but that's not going to happen very often).
Scott
Oh...another issue is how far out the Aegis extends--but you probably wouldn't want it outside the aura 5 area.
Another possibility to lower the inside-the-castle aura level is to say that the formation of the regio somehow sucked some of the magic out of the courtyard, lowering its aura to 4. This seems kinda cheesy to me, though.
Scott
If anyone wants a rough map of what the castle looks like, get a copy of th eold ancient box set D&D, and look at the map for the Keep on the Borderlands 
And yes, we have a keep and we use it.
Anyone outside the castle is also outside the Aegis. You are not the only one with this problem. I need to think over the weekend. Honestly, I was wondering if the reinvented Andorra could use a regio, but I decided against it.
Hmmm....
You have that Wine Cask vis source from that one adventure, right? Since we have a straight exchange rate, you can plug that into paying for your own Aegis maybe?
We are getting close to an agreement I think. We are both flexible and willing o listen to the advice of the trupe.
BUT....
I am outta here for the weekend! You guys settle it. Whatever you all decide by Monday, that's what I will abide by. Prologue Story starts Monday!
Laters 
bye
A few comments on Scott’s lab:
I would argue that a butterfly, even a large one, takes up a relatively “trivial†amount of space, which means you can probably scale back that minor virtue to a free one.
One of the most confusing things about the way Covenants is written is that the Major-ness or Minor-ness of the virtues is based partially on their powers, but also very much on the physical space they take up. Minor virtues need not necessarily be powerful, and free virtues need not necessarily be weak (compare Servant or Priceless Ingredients to, say, Potted Plants or Excessive Heating). I think the assumption that just because it’s a minor virtue you should get a lot of bang for your buck is erroneous, and mixing a bunch of virtues together into one uber-virtue confuses things even more.
Mark’s ruling seems perfectly fair, even generous to me.
I would agree with Marko as well. Just for the record Dragan's sanctum will also be outside the castle, so no worries about the Aegis and such.
Yes, you're right on that one--I didn't even realize I'd written that one as Minor, but when I went back and checked right now, I found you were right.
If we use the "takes up space" reasoning, then Regio would be a Free Virtue, since it doesn't take up any space (indeed, it adds it--I mean, otherwise, why wouldn't it just say +2 Size?). That is, you can't justify its being Minor by either space (it doesn't take up any) or powers (it's less than any other Minor Virtue). So what exactly is fair about it? I'm not sure what your reasoning is here.
Scott
Also, if the concern is that the lab gains too much benefit from a Free Virtue, I'd think I'd get some kind of credit for the three Free Flaws--I mean, I didn't have to take those, after all, but they felt right (and yes, they do give some Art specialization bonuses, but the safety penalties are probably more significant).
Scott