Table Talk - Development

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Light of Andorra
421

Viola,

You cannot have a split level lab, sorry. However, you can have a secondary lab on the other level. And you gotta reduce the Aura on the levels. The top is 5. It is more than just a Lab Bonus. It’s your Aura dude :smiley: It is a vis source, a study from vis source, a study source, and experimentation resource, and so very much more.

I am as flexible as Mister Fantastic (I know you don’t like comics, but he’s a movie star now :smiley: ), and I will let the troupe kick it around. But you do realize you are dropping a nice juicy story hook on yourself, and you gotta give me several good reasons why no one has destroyed this creepy tree thing yet. It certainly has me worried! And it was Antonio who brought you here. He is worried about the dark faeries around the mountain. In fact, he thinks the three is dangerous, and he asked you to investigate a means of making sure it will never pose a danger.

JeanMichelle, your idea to give it the Awkward Shape Flaw is great! MT Scott the Knife, I would be willing to bend the single floor rule if you take that Flaw. And each point of increased aura has gotta cost you something, like a Minor Virtue for a +1 increase and a Major Virtue for a +2 increase. Sound fair?

Dimir Tar,

Yes, armour should be armour. I suggest PeTe to take out the weight (-1 hauberk/-2 full) and MuTe to adjust the bulk (-1/-1). Either way, the combination cuts load in half. Eh?? As for a sliding scale for increased soak, I will allow +2 per magnitude. Maybe you could make Antonio’s armour for him after all? He’ll take a chain mail hauberk, Leave space for him to put a few tricks of his own. Hey, wait a minute… Will the armour be haunted?

As for the ring, the rules say no, but I imagine that Verditius magi might know such a thing as Enchantment Mastery? Something to think about?

Metal “jet-pack” wings are kind of bizarre dude. I dunno.

422

Hmm yeah I would agree as described, but then what's in a description right?

Given that there are surviving ancient greek myths about fashioning wings for flight, perhaps something more akin to eagle's wings (or raven's if you prefer black :wink: ) would be more in keeping with the flavour of the time period?

We'll have to make Dimir Tar the head of the Andorran Airforce :laughing:

As for your Mastery idea, Mark, do note that the Neo-Mercurians have contributed "Lab Mastery" (pg. 117 TMRE) to Hermetic Theory so I see no reason why A Verdi wouldnt have discovered and incorporated it into his/her repertoire.

423

I am totally willing to go down the Enchantment Lab Mastery Mystery road, but then I get to design his confaternity. Deal?

424

If confraternities are really necessary. I personally never paid much attention to them when I played a Verdi.

425

If he wants a newly invented mystery, he's gott let me have some leverage. Just like I designed Scotts cult and I ruled you can't be Diedne. Still, the choice is his.

426

You have to, with the Regio Virtue--that's how it works. Anyway, why would it be a problem?

I'd reduce the level if I could, but it's not possible: a regio has to have a higher aura than the mundane level beneath it. And yes, it affects a lot of different things, but any increase to General Quality affects all the same things. It's basically a +1 to General Quality (it wouldn't be fair to use the aura bonus from the higher level, since that'll be only half the lab). Big whoop. (And no, she's not going to be distilling vis, since her CrVi sucks, and she's probably not going to study in the lab, either, since she has a Study Requirement--it would be okay for Herbam, or maybe Muto and Animal, possibly Vim since it's a regio--but not for other Arts. Anyway, she will not under any circumstances study from vis. shiver)

By the time she's finished outfitting the lab, it's going to have a Warping of 3, which is hardly a munchkin's dream.

The tree on the mundane level is normal...well, as normal as a tree would be in an aura of 5.

Awkward Shape was my idea, not JeanMichelle's. :slight_smile: Viola's plan was to enchant a platform for with a ReHe effect (an "elevator", if you will) to negate that Flaw--I figure a season of work to overcome it is fair.

However, taking a Minor Virtue for the aura in the regio would not be fair--it amounts to a +1 General Quality, which is considerably less of a bonus than any of the other Minor Virtues; it's exactly equal to Highly Organized, which is a Free Virtue.

Admittedly, whoever wrote the "Laboratories" chapter apparently overlooked the aura issue entirely (and apparently overlooked the Awkward Shape issue as well) in writing the description of the Regio Virtue--but the single +1 bonus is still pretty trivial compared to the bonuses for Minor and Major Virtues (it's not that difficult to get a bonus of +10 or higher when working in a maga's area of specialization, and that's not counting the Safety and Aesthetic benefits).

I didn't pick a regio to get the aura bonus--I did it because a regio is cool. I can't have the regio without the bonus, though.

As for a Story Hook, I'm OK witih that. I see the regio itself as isolated, but if the inhabitants start wandering out into the covenant....

Scott

427

One thing we could do is to call Regio a Minor Supernatural Virtue that normally comes with the Minor Structural Flaw Awkward Shape. The combination of Size +3 and (in effect) Quality +1 is arguably enough to consitute a Minor Virtue. I still favor the idea of negating the Flaw with an enchanted item, though.

Scott

428

The top level has to be five. It does noy equate to a +1 Quality bonus. The other layers have to be 4 or lower. The Aura is only 2, it spikes to 5 at tyhe castle (I refigured it so we could have that vast wilderness aura, remember?)

Regio does not meen two floors. The hall is just longer than it looks. I will allow the Awkward Shape Flaw, but an elevator will not eliminate it.

It is not a minor or trivial bonus it is an increased aura. Top level is 5. That's the ruling. Silver Hammer :slight_smile:

429

I revised the covenant's boons and hooks to reflect our supernatural wilderness and our vast aura. I also added some history, which might need revision to include all y'all. I'll get to that.

430

I never asked for nor intended to be Diedne.

431

Yes, an extra point of aura does equate almost exactly to a +1 Quality bonus. There is literally no difference between the two, other than a) an extra botch die and b) the possibility of Warping for a mundane living there. In ArM5, the aura doesn't even have a direct effect on vis extraction (and no, it has no effect on experimentation, either, other than the extra botch die). In other words, an extra point of Aura is slightly worse than a +1 Quality; it's actually +1 Quality and -1 Safety. Honestly, I have no idea where your concern is coming from--could you please explain it?

Since the regio is in the middle of the castle, it wouldn't make sense for the aura beneath it to be 4--especially since it's obviously one of the weirder spots on the covenant grounds.

I don't want a long hall; I want an entrance through a skylight, because that makes sense given the presence of a tree as the regio's central focus. It's not actually "two floors"--it's just that the entrance to the upper level happens to be 10 feet up in the air; the ground in the upper level is at exactly the same height as the floor of the lower level. The long hall doesn't fit the story, and there's not even anything very fae about it.

Why do you even care about the exact shape, though? From the standpoint of game mechanics, it's purely cosmetic.

The Awkward Shape applies in either case, and I'm not opposed to it in principle, though I wonder why the Regio Virtue makes no mention of it. However, I am worried about the Safety penalty. The lab already has a -1 from Deformed and a -1 from Inhabitants, and Viola was planning to incorporate the wine casks into the lab (the Minor Supernatural Virtue Vis Source), which would give another -1. Presumably the reason for the Safety penalty for Awkward Shape is that it's hard to monitor all parts of the lab at once, and possibly that it's hard to move quickly between areas to deal with a problem. In principle, it should be possible to address that with one or more enchanted items, say, something to allow "remote monitoring" of each level from the other, probably in addition to something to allow rapid movement between the two levels. That's at least two seasons of enchantment, which is not a trivial cost to negate the Flaw.

Look, I've already taken two Virtues away from Viola, and reduced her Abilities and Arts to conform better to 5th Edition. I spent half a day writing that lab description, and I'm very attached to it, and nothing in it gives my character some unfair advantage over the other characters. I feel very strongly about this.

Scott

432

I will agree that a split level lab can be accomplished with the Awkward shape. I do not think Regio automatically implies this, as I think that Regio was ment for use with covenants that themselves have a regio.

As for the aura increase, you know my stant. Mnor Virtue for a +1 bonus, Major for a +2. You accomodate me this way, and I will acquiesse to your desire. In fact, I will say that the lab is already refined enough to include these, wich is within the limit of your Magic Theory, so you only need to spend a season adjusting to your new digs.

And I thought the tree was outside the castle walls! If it is inside, Antonio totally wants to uproot it, burn it, and Perdo it. You gotta talk him out of that. He wanted you to investigate it before he chopped it up for firewood. It reminds me of the Black Fir!

Can we find a compromise though?

When did you take two virtues away? Which two? Was it one of the ones I designed?

433

This is untrue. Vis extraction is a function of one's CrVi lab total and lab totals include Aura as part of the calculation. So higher aura means higher lab total and thus more vis extracted per season.

434

Yes, but that's not what I meant by "direct"--in ArM4, the aura was multiplied for vis extraction. In ArM5, the bonus from the aura has exactly the same impact as any other bonus to the Lab Total--in other words, it's exactly equivalent to an increase in General Quality.

But yes, I could have worded that better.

Scott

435

As for the Increased Aura in Viola's Lab, there are just long ranging implications for me to give a snap decision. I don't have time to think about. I would rather give you a +1 in some other way. And I kind of wanted you to have those Virtues the others talked you into taking away. Those I did have a long time to think over. I wasn't paying close enough attention to the debate. I gotta manage 10 people now!

The thing with the aura, there are a million and one unknown factors that go way beyond a +1 bonus. Saying you are never gonna lock someone in your sanctum to warp them or extract vis is all well and good, but it is still there. The reason I wanna make it a Virtue, even if I toss in refinement, is that it at least caps you.

But I am fair, and not arbitrary. I will let the troup decide, as I have with everything so far. Consistency is key.

Guys, what do you all think?

436

I'm curious what other factors the higher aura might bring. If I really wanted to warp someone, 1 point/year from their being locked in my lab is not the best way to do it....But I'm open to good arguments about other stuff.

As for Awkward Shape, I may have found an explanation for why the Regio description doesn't mention it: any regio should also be Well Insulated (I'm pretty sure the Regio Virtue refers to a lab in its own regio, but I can see where Mark might think otherwise; the upper regio level would have to be the lab's own regio, though), and that would almost cancel out the Awkward Shape. We could rule that the lab starts out with both Awkward Shape and Well Insulated, by default (they do after all cancel out, since both are Minor), which gives a net -1 Safety, and no modifier to Aesthetics. I'm still not thrilled about the -1, but it's a lot better than the -2.

If it were somebody else's lab, what would set me off is not the aura bonus, but the +3 Size. That's enough to accomodate a Major Virtue (though it'll take two seasons to make use of it), and a Major Virtue is worth considerably more than a +1 or even a +2 aura. Take a look at Greater Expansion or Greater Horde if you don't believe me (each of them comes with +2 General Quality, and a couple of other benefits on top of it, though they do increase Upkeep; but Upkeep isn't an issue in this case, since most of the other stuff in the lab doesn't increase it, and Faerie Ingredients actually decreases it).

I think overall the other stuff that comes along with the regio, like Deformed, Infested (I forgot that -1 Safety in my earlier list), and Inhabitants (they're all Free, but they're all Flaws) make up for the Size benefit; add in Awkward Shape, and it's barely a benefit at all (and the Safety mod gets up to -5, though only -3 with Well Insulated and Superior Equipment; at the same time the combination of Regio and Faerie Ingredients produces +2 Warping). Of course, I'm biased in defense of my personal creation, but if there's a balance problem, it's the Size issue.

As for Viola's Virtues (specifically, Faerie-raised Magic, which includes Spell Improvisation):

I could find a way to take them back, but getting rid of them made the troupe a lot happier, and the Spell Improvisation she would almost never use anyway, since she only knows a handful of formulaics. If you want to work on that, though, let me know. And yes, we could go back to your versions on Innate and Potent Spontaneous magic--your way may makes her slightly more powerful, but not significantly so; the overall effect is similar to the way I ended up doing it. I'm flexible on this point, though.

Scott

437

Fairy Raised Magic is far more powerful than you give it credit for being. Trust me, even if you start with few formulaics, you'd be able to amass many many more spells faster than any of us with the point based system by which it functions.

438

Yes, I agree it's powerful if used properly, though the way I advanced Viola I didn't use it properly, which is why I didn't mind giving it up.

In the discussion of power levels, though, I was referring to her Innate Spontaneous Magic and Potent Spontaneous Magic.

Scott

439

Guys, this is a game. Take it easy. Don't Nynaeve around (I doubt you've got any braid to pull anyway). Don't worry if you do not catch the allusion.

From a game mechanics point of view I do agree with Scott. Look at his character again, at the totally harmless butterfly familiar he created and his stats. Powergaming looks different, I think.
Of course using a regio has lots of munchkinism potential in a normal game and the huge size potential of this lab only underlines this. But the stats at the moment are quite harmless - and the basic ArM5 rules don't seem to favor aura the way they used to when we were all young and excitable and Ars Magica a softcover book.
Also look at the Cargo-Saga's speed. I hope we can beat that, but I believe that Mark can keep us busy with adventures for the next 5 to 10 years (real-time!!!) with hardly any more than a handful of lab seasons in between. Even if Scott's character had a powerful lab (and not a maybe powerful lab in 10 years or so), there won't be any time for munchkinism.
And as a SG, you can always make a regio disappear mysteriously for a few seasons if Scott really has some secret munchkin agenda.

Having said this I can understand Mark's worry about some kind of fairy-feel regio in a Flambeau castle. I see the Flambeau castle mostly as a military camp for medieval Oppenheimers - pride and hubris and dangerous labs where bombs are invented. Your courtyard glade is so peaceful...

440

Innate sponatneous Magic should mean that, if you do not spend Fatigue to cast, you still divide by two but yo do not roll a die. Potent Spontaneous Magic should allow you to add +6 if you do spend Fatigue. I think that's what I originally wrote.

As far as your lab, I will abide by whatever the troupe decides. I am not an ogre. It is your game :smiley: