Table Talk - Development

Vortigern, you are pretty much good to goahead and post Ludo to the main Character Sheet thread (sticky). Arwan, seeing as there are no objections, you are pretty good to go as well. Just fix up the character for your final development, post it here for review, and unless someone shouts, go ahead and poist to the main thread.

You can also feel free to start roleplaying in Andorra. Lots of cool stuff to see :smiley:

I don't have "Houses of Hermes: Societates", so anything that is contained in its pages is beyond my current purview and familiarity. With "Pilum of Ice", I was extrapolating from "The Wizard's Grimoire, Revised".

Apart from the rules presented in "The Mysteries, Revised" are there 5th Ed. guidelines for Spirit Masters? Spirit is sometimes treated as an additional Element--the animating force of the universe.

Regarding Twilight, there are some possibilities. One aspect concerns possibly doing Original Research to help contribute to Fuego's endeavour as a means of paying back part of the Favour for the Mystery teaching. The Mysteries you provided are all centered on Lab activities. Basically, they have minimal use in the field and much more for someone who spends most of his or her time creating enchanted items. I hadn't planned on delving into enchantment as heavily as that would imply, favouring spells for the most part. Engaging in Original Research would make greater use of them.

I was following the opening mysteries for an Alchemist. Other Mysteries would follow, but these would have to come first. A special virtue isn't needed for Spirit Magic, it is just very useful. It takes a level 40 spell to summon a spirit, which is why I said you need a higher Rego. Otherwise, Summoning the Spirit of Flame would have been a spell Fuego taught you :smiley:

Other than that, be creative and have fun with Twilight if you want :slight_smile:

Arwan, below I listed all the non-RAW spells, including the new ones you invented, new spells that Fuego taught you, and the WGRE spells. I like the old WGRE :smiley:. It wasn’t as broken as all the whiny complainers say it was. A little broken, yes. But updating the spells grants the opportunity to fix them as well.

Other than that, I am willing to negotiate Virtues, Flaws, & Mysteries. The primary rule is that you decide what you want. I am only an influence and an advisor. Now, it is true that I am a fan of Confidence, which is why I so strongly suggest it. Strong Will does indeed allow you greater influence when it comes to a contest of wills, and I would also allow it as a bonus to resist a Twilight Episode (not for Comprehension though). Keep Second Sight if you want. It is probably the single most useful (and ubiquitous) Supernatural Ability for magi.

As for Mysteries, Fuego’s path is based most strongly on Hermetic Alchemy. I thought Vulgar Alchemy was a pre-requisite, but I cannot find where it says that. So, out of four Minor Mysteries, Hermetic Alchemy and Planetary Magic are the core two. As for another two, I suggest the Minor Potent Magic (something resembling your Arcana thing maybe?), Vulgar Alchemy, Lesser Periapts, Spell Binding, and what else? If you can think of something better let me know. I haven’t fully fleshed out Fuego or this Tradition yet, and I can arrange his Mysteries to fit what we come up with.

New Spells: (if no description is given, it pretty much falls in line with the WGRE description)
CrAq/Co10 Satiating the Drunkard's Thirst (WGRE)
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind
(Base 2, +1 Eye, +2 Sun, +1 requisite)

CrAq/Co15 Encase in Ice (WGRE)
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Sun,

CrAq15 White Blade of Death (WGRE)
R: Touch, D: Special, T: Ind
Creates a longsword of hardened ice. It does no additional damage, but the spell can be released as described in WGRE.
(Base 3, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 complexity)

Cr/ReAq20 Pilum of Ice (Arwan/Markoko)
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
As Dagger of Ice (Societates. P. 35), with two additional magnitudes of increased Rego force behind it, so that it inflicts +15 damage (from jagged cold ice). The ice shatters easily, so double the protective value of any hard armour when comparing for Soak.
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 Rego Requisite, +2 increased force)

CrCo25 Blessing of Rapid Recovery (Arwan/Markoko)
R: Touch, D: Moon, T: Individual
Grants a +9 bonus to Recovery Rolls. In addition, healing time is sped up by one step (Heavy Wounds are checked in a Month, Medium in a Week, and Light every day).
(Base 4, +1 increased healing speed by 1 step, +1 Touch, +3 Moon)

Pe/CrCo2 The Cleanly Body (Arwan)
Removes all dirt and body odor from the caster.
(Base 1, +1 Requisite)

InIg5 Compass of the Vigilant Flame (Markoko/Wiki)
R: Arcane, D: Mom, T: Ind
This spell informs you of the exact direction and approximate range of any one fire you have an Arcane Connection to (something ignited, burned, or branded by it). The fire must not have died out since the connection was obtained, for if it does, a reignited fire counts as a separate flame (and thus the connection is lost).
(Base 1, +4 Arcane Connection)

ReIg15 Transient Ward Against Heat and Flames (Arwan)
R: Personal, D: Diameter, T: Ind
Grants +15 soak as a Ward against Heat & Flames, but with the above altered parameters.
(Base 4, +2 for increased soak, +1 Diameter)

InIm15 Revelations of the Far-Prying Eye (Arwan)
R: Sight, D: Conc, T: Room
As The Prying Eyes, with increased range.
(Base 1, +3 Sight, +1 Conc, +2 Room)

CrMe30r Assurance of the Tolerable Manner (Arwan)
R: Per, D: Mom, T: Ind
Permanently raises Communication by one step up to 0. It is presumed that Vare has cast this to the extent he is allowed.
(Base 30)

ReMe25 Command the Spirit (Arwan)
R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind
As, Coerce the Spirits of the Night, with an increased duration.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +2 Sun)

Pe/ReMe20 Obliviousness of the Inattentive Sentry (Arwan)
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +1 Conc)

Cr/ReTe20 Pilium of Iron (Markoko)
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
Creates a skewer of Iron that strikes the target with enough force to inflict +15 damage.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +2 Strikes with Rego Force)

InTe3 Craftsman’s Eye. (Wiki)
R: Touch, D: Momentary T: Individual
The caster learns some fact about a manufactured solid object constructed of earth, stone, or metal. This fact must be a fact that a skilled artisan could determine by merely looking at the artifact.

ReTe20 Acquisition of the Collector's Eye (Arwan)
R: Sight, D: Mom, T: Ind, Casting Requisites
Instantly transfers a target item into your hands. This spell only works on inanimate objects, and the spell fails upon anything being worn, held, touched, or seen by anyone but you. Casting requisites for the type of object apply, and the mass that can be transported depends on the material.
(Base 4 transport dirt 5 paces, +1 increase that to 50 paces, +3 Sight, +1 Increased capability, -1 restricted)

InVi3 Scent of Raw Vis. (Wiki)
R: Personal, D: Momentary T: Scent
The caster’s sense of smell can smell vis for a single inhalation. Repeated castings can be used to locate vis.

InVi20 Strings of the Arcane Connection (WGRE)
R: Arcane, D: Conc, T: Group
Detects all Strong Arcane Connections (lasting a Year or longer). A higher level spell is required to detect weaker connections.
(Base 1, +4 Arcane, +1 Conc, +2 Group)

Without the increased damage, the spell is much less attractive. Would this require a Level boost to achieve?

Hmm. Would the addition of a Muto Requisite allow the ice to be superhardened so that it doesn't shatter? Of course, with Muto it could conceivably have other properties as well. It gives one the idea for a "solidified" "Pilum of Mercury" which would have wicked physical penetration (mirroring some RL armour-piercing rounds in which the kinetic energy of the round is transfered to a dense liquid core which keeps going). Not something one would probably see, but it's an interesting idea.

I like this version very, very much. The acceleration of Heavy and Medium Wounds could have a dramatic effect.

Ok, I'd envisioned "The Cleanly Body" as being able to strip away any grime, sweat, or other unwanted matter from the body of the caster or, if boosted to Touch Range, the recipient. Due to the ability to affect liquids, plant matter, and/or animal matter as well as dirt it would have a higher base. The ability to discern and decide what is being removed could add yet another level. One key point with the spell is that it is intended to be able to substitute for a full bath/toilet, magically consuming the material removed so that it cannot be used in an Arcane Connection.

Pe/ReMe25 "Obliviousness of the Inattentive Sentry" (Arawn)
R: Voice, D: Diameter or Concentration, T: Part

This spell is designed to selectively interfere with the target's powers of perception. Rather than make the subject completely unaware of his or her surroundings, it affects the ability to perceive a chosen element which the target might otherwise notice. E.g. a sentry who could account for everything around him might be enchanted so that he fails to observe anyone wearing the colour blue, or a pervasive stench, or the face, dress, or even sex of someone to whom he is speaking. Designed to be used by Vares, the spell can be expanded to affect an entire Group in this fashion if desired, or if dropped to Individual will render the single target completely unaware yet conscious, effectively lost in a daydream for the duration.

If a target impinges very strongly on the subject (e.g. strikes with enough force to cause a Light Wound), the subject is allowed to make a Per+Awareness check to focus on the target with an Ease Factor appropriate to the circumstance (Base 9 for a Wound-causing injury). If someone else who can perceive the circumstance points it out, the subject will probably still remain oblivious (Ease Factor 18), though if greater force is applied to compel the subject to notice the check becomes easier (probably 15 for environmental factor, 12 for something like heavily slapping an unnoticeable object into the subject's hand).

Note that a subtler application of this spell can effectively cause the subject to ignore the disturbing aura caused by the Gift for the duration. Through repeated exposure under its influence, a subject might become effectively inured to the caster's Gift or the Gifts of other Magi regularly in the caster's presence (this requires a boost to Sun Duration, used repeatedly over a minimum of a period of days if not longer in multiple encounters). It is very good at helping the caster temporarily "pass" as a mundane.

(Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 Concentration, +1 Part, +1 Rego Requisite)

Very, very useful--and a spell that looks like a precursor to a relate piece of magic that I've been thinking about.

InTe10 "Know the Keystone" (Arawn)
R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Structure
Reveals all of the stress points and interlinking places of construction in a building. The caster need only touch a single part of the structure to know all of the relevant junctures within the affected target, though it may need to be cast repeatedly on different portions of extremely large structures (or else a higher-size Target version used).
(Base 2, +1 Range, +3 Target)

This would need to be cast before employing the following spell, which I've also been contemplating.

MuTe25 "Tumbled Ruin of the Wearing Sands" (Arawn)
R: Sight, D: Diameter, T: Part

Turns a keystone which the caster has identified into loose, weak sand. Repeated use of this spell, or carefully cast, will severely damage the structural integrity of a structure, and may cause a localised collapse. Even after the spell wears off, the restored stone will be in the form of small pebbles and unable to bear its former load. Properly targeted, repeated use may set off a chain reaction which can destroy large portions of a building, casting it down into ruin.
(Base 3 to turn Stone to Sand, +3 Range, +1 Diameter, +1 Part or Size, +1 tricky use)

Note that It may need a different Range (not clear on whether being able to see the target building is enough), though the Targeting functions through the above spell. Conceivably, one could downgrade the Range to Voice and increase Size to Group to take out multiple keystones at once, or boost the Target to Structure (MuTe30) and turn the entire building into sand, in which case it would be "Collapse of the Sand Castle".

Another useful spell

"Pebble for the Hall" (Cr/ReTe25)

As "Protecting Wall of Stone" but D: Diameter, and creates an enclosure of variable dimensions with a total wall length of 30 paces and slightly less than 1 pace thickness, height up to 4 paces, with doors or walls as creator decides; +1 Magnitude for variable dimensions; spell has the effect of calling a piece of the ground inside the area where the "hall" is to be created to the caster in a magical "exchange", paying one pebble or piece of ground for the "cost" of the hall's existence; a CrTe30 version lasts for a full Sun Duration)

I may need to boost it to ReTe25 in order to eliminate the restriction. Trying to figure out the Base for moving the material was what made me uncertain, so I extrapolated from the 4th Ed. spell "Invisible Hand of the Thief".

Ok, I'll have to look at the InVi Level guidelines to get it to the level of sensitivity I have in mind.

I'll have to think about the appropriate Mysteries. I'd like to point out that by the time most Magi have been Initiated into four Mysteries--even Minor ones--they're expected to have a higher Mystery Lore. Perhaps Fuego has been teaching Vares over a longer period of time, allowing him to progress through them?

I'm curious what you have in mind for Permanent Alchemy. Is it effectively a reintroduction of the Permanent Duration, intended to be used with Muto? If so, I'd recommend that the research path emphasise an attempt to make it non-Warping in the same fashion that a Momentary Creo Ritual is non-Warping, although it could still function on non-living things. Or perhaps it allows for the Momentary Creation of "unnatural" substances which are made natural through the application of Alchemy?

I have a bunch of comments for you. But it will have to wait. I didn't get a chance to finish writing them up last night :slight_smile:

Alright, I'm considering the following revisions to Ludo. Basically the point is a thought I'd better utilize his chargen exp, instead of effectively getting half credit on his rego for the study of summoning and commanding and simply study rego directly, freeing a lot of time to study spells. I didn't have the gusto to go back and reaccomplish my season by season breakdown yet again, so here is a quick wag that I accomplished this afternoon, just doing the exp math.

Summoning & Commanding together are 180xp. Dumping those totals would also lose Ludo 90xp of Rego.

Studying 60xp of Rego, bumped to 90 with affinity, would even him out... for a net gain of 120xp, or roughly twelve seasons of study.

My breakdown so far is as follows:

Intellego Vim Study = 4 ( 7 extra points )

Rego Vim Study = 5 ( 19 Extra Points )

Muto Vim Study = 1 ( 3 extra points )

Rego Corpus = 1 ( 8 extra points )

This currently leaves one extra season unalloted. ( I'm trying to think of a good intellego or rego vim. )

All comments and corrections are welcome. I have not taken the time yet to check my own math, so there very likely could be errors. :wink:

( Rego Vim ) 20+20+3+3+2 ( 48 ) (69) (89)

( Perdo Vim ) 10+20+3+3+2 ( 38 ) (49) (59)

( Rego Unknown ) 20+3+3+2 ( 28 ) (29)

( Unknown Vim ) 20+3+3+2 ( 28 ) (29)

( Perdo Unknown ) 10+3+3+2 ( 18 ) (19)

( 120 / 120 )

Lunar Binding of the Demanding Enchantment
Rego Vim 30
Gen. ( lvl +2 mag. ) / +1 Touch / +3 Moon / Ind - Sustaining Effect ( lvl -10 )

Coerce the Spirits of Magic
Rego Vim lvl 20
Base 5 / +2 Voice / +1 Concentration / Ind

Coerce the Spirits of Faerie
Rego Vim lvl 20
Base 5 / +2 Voice / +1 Concentration / Ind

Fellblade of the Art
Perdo Vim lvl 10
Base 5 / +2 Voice / Mom. / Ind.
Might Stripper, Magic Realm

The Invisible Eye Revealed
Intellego Vim lvl 20
Base Effect / Per. / Conc. / Touch

Throwing Off The Shackles of Guernicus
Perdo vim lvl 20
Base Effect / Per. / Mom. / Ind.
Dispels any scrying effect targeting the caster of a level equal to or lesser than ( Spell level +20 + Stress die )


*The Eye That Marks The Bounds
Intellego Vim lvl 25
Base 1 / Per. / +1 Conc. / +4 Sight / +3 additional effect ( Realm )
Allows the caster to see the presence and boundaries of all realm auras within his field of vision, they appear as distinct and colorful auras depending on their relative ( high/low, inexact ) power level and realm affiliation.

*Piercing the Faerie Veil
Intellego Vim lvl 20
Base Effect 3 / +1 Conc / + 4 Vision
Allows the caster to see through the boundaries of faerie realm regiones.

*Divining the Mystic Path
Intellego Vim lvl 20
( Magic Version )

*The Twisted Paths of Hell
Intellego Vim lvl 20
( Infernal Version )

*The Eye of the Needle
Intellego Vim lvl 20
( Divine Version )

*Coerce the Spirits of the Dominion
Rego Vim lvl 20
Base 5 / +2 Voice / +1 Concentration / Ind

*Coerce the Spirits of Hell
Rego Vim lvl 20
Base 5 / +2 Voice / +1 Concentration / Ind

*Word's Wrought With Iron
Perdo Vim lvl 10
Base Effect / +2 Voice / Mom. / Ind.
Might Stripper, Faerie Realm

*Demon's Eternal Oblivion
Perdo Vim lvl 10
Base Effect / +2 Voice / Mom. / Ind.
Might Stripper, Infernal Realm

*Chthonic Invocation
Perdo Vim lvl 10
Base Effect / +2 Voice / Mom. / Ind.
Might Stripper, Divine Realm

*Binding the Spirit of Magic
Rego Vim lvl 35

*Binding the Spirit of Faerie
Rego Vim lvl 35

*Binding the Divine Spirit
Rego Vim lvl 35

*Binding the Infernal Spirit
Rego Vim lvl 35

*Summon the Spirit of Magic
Rego Vim lvl 40

*Summon the Spirit of Faerie
Rego Vim lvl 40

*Summon the Spirit of the Divine
Rego Vim lvl 40

*Summon the Spirit of the Infernal
Rego vim lvl 40

*Wizard's Communion
Muto Vim lvl 25

*Conjuring the Invisible Wings of Hermes
Rego Corpus lvl 20
Base Effect lvl 15 / +1 Conc.
Personal Flight Spell

*The Mind's Cobwebs Cleared
Perdo Vim 10
Base Effect / Per. / Mom. / Ind.
Dispels any one mentem effect on the caster of a level less than or equal to the effects lvl +4 mag. + stress die.

*Deny the Errant Apprentice's Works
Rego Vim 20
Gen. Effect ( +5 ) / +2 Voice / +1 Conc. - Suppresses the Spell of another caster. Level +2 mag / 2. ( 15 )

*Suppress The Upstart Foe's Enchantment
Rego Vim 50
Gen. Effect ( +5 ) / +2 Voice / +1 Conc. - Suppresses spell of another caster. Level +2 Mag / 2. ( 30 )

At quick glance, it all looks good. They way I chargen is to spen all xp's for all years as one bulk sum, then I cram all lab activities in the last few years. It is much faster that way.

Alright, a couple of last minute additions. If anyone can think of anything useful to drop those remaining points onto for low level formulaics, I'd be interested in ideas.

Intellego Vim Study = 4 ( 7 extra points )

Rego Vim Study = 5 ( 4 Extra Points )

Muto Vim Study = 1 ( 3 extra points )

Rego Corpus = 1 ( 3 extra points )

Perdo Vim = 1 ( 3 extra points )

*Masking the Odor of Magic ( Mod. ) Mystic Veil of Ludovico
Perdo Vim lvl 35
Gen. Effect ( +2 ) / +2 Voice / +2 Sun
Masks any magic in any one spell, object, or creature from a detection effect that does not exceed spell level -2 mag. X 2. ( 50 )

*Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand
Rego Corpus 5
Base 2 / +2 Voice / +1 Conc.
One of the target's hands spasms, causing them to drop anything held in it. Continues to spasm for duration.

Watching Ward ( Mod. ) The Vigilant Enchantment
Rego Vim 15
Gen. ( +5 ) / +1 Conc. / +1 Touch / Ind. ( 30 )
Spell Container Effect.

I looked through some of the Mysteries, and I've been thinking about it. Vulgar Alchemy is extremely useful for enchanters and those who use Potent Magic. It's also great for those who rely heavily on a Talisman, since it can let them develop new Attunement options. It is a perfectly valid progression for an Alchemist.

Unaging is more of a benfit than some might think. Forgoing the use of a Longevity Potion can be a strategic move for a Magus. Relying on a combination of Environmental benefits, the Bronze Cord from a Familiar, and any possible Faerie Blood bonus against aging one can go for decades beyond the onset of nominal aging checks before one really needs to brew a Longevity Potion. In that time, the Magus would have 1 less Warping Point accumulation per year, and would remain completely fertile. I don't know if Fuego would have taught Vares Unaging, but I've checked for the effects of Aging out to twenty years past Gauntlet (Age 46). He passed all of them without accumulating any Aging Points. Consequently, his accumulated Warping Points should be only 26 at that point, plus any from the Twilight episode (20 for each of 20 years, with +3 per each decade to account for the additional effect of his Weird Magic Flaw, which acts like Faerie Magic in that it can cause Warping, but doesn't contribute to Twilight or cause other negative effects).

Regarding Vares' Twilight, an especially deep episode could yield substantial effects. From your comments, I'm assuming that is to be deemed the case? When would the episode have taken place? Working from a base Warping Score of 2, he successfull comprehended the Twilight. If he had enough to gain a Major Virtue, I'm divided somewhere between adding a Major Magical Focus in Libra (his Astrological Correspondence, which matches him very well) and Mythic Blood (it has to start somwhere) with a Minor Magical Focus in his Astrological House. Both Flawless and Tamed Magic were also considered, but the Major Magical Focus and Mythic Blood seem to be somewhat better fits.

Relying on Unaging will result in it being impossible to use enough vis in the lab to make your poion. But anyway, I am saving this page and will review tonight :slight_smile:

[quote="Marko Markoko"]
I saw no spirit mastery on your sheet, nor do I intend for Fuego to teach you any. So I didn't realize Second Sight would be important. Go ahead then. You need a much higher Rego score though :slight_smile:[/quote/

And there's already a pretty dedicated Spirit-Master character.

Perhaps focus more on Arcane Connections and affecting things at a distance or the "sneaky" side of the character as it's an aspect that the current roster of magi don't appear to have covered.

I'll send some Alchemical stuff to Marko to help flesh out Fuego's Alchemical teachings etc. He can forward it on to you or you can email me and I'll send the PDF for you to chew over.

Cheers,

Lachie

I can see, now, that there's a strong Spirit-Master. It was intended as a secondary aspect of Vares, more in regard to the "spiritual" side of Alchemy that necessarily with the calling and commanding of spirits, although that's part of his magical background. He has Alluring to Magic, so those aligned with the Magic Realm, including spirits, are naturally well-disposed to him.

Emphasising the subtle/stealthy aspect of Vares' nature, his fluid mastery of magic, and a side-pursuit into Arcane Connections are all perfectly reasonable. He also has a background suitable for further study of Astrological Mysteries (Celestial Magic would be a good fit with his character development, and is something Practiced by his Parens, Antoninus Exupereus), and, of course, Alchemy (the two are almost inextricably linked).

Vares' Magic Theory should be about 5 after his further spell studies (which gave him 24 xp for 12 seasons; 2 XP exposure each season in the lab for reinventing the spells). At 5x2, that's 10 Pawns of Vis per season, which would be more than enough to brew a Longevity Potion up to the age of 50, though I hadn't intended to have him do so. The method of delayed use of Longevity Potions is one of the ideas I developed when I first read through 5th Ed., and I'd be willing to try it in play. Truthfully, Vares is the sort to have sired a number of offspring in his time, hoping to create a Gifted lineage. If he developed Mythic Blood as a result of his Twilight, he would have an even stronger motivation.

Vaere and Ludovico,

Go ahead and post your characters. If anything needs to be revised, you have the edit power over all your posts. Ludo have been role playing up a stirm, fantastic job! Vare, get in the mix and start playing with stuff. Push buttons, pull levers, make a mess :laughing:

Marko Markoko and I have been debating over the potential uses of the Minor Magical Focus: Regnum (Astrological House). According to "The Mysteries, Revised", it covers Career, Ambition, and Achievement. I interpret that it mean that it affects key engagements or determining events in a Magus' life. One point that he suggested I bring to everyone is whether it can affect the Lab totals for major career elements such as the Binding of a Familiar or creation of a Talisman, both of which signify major accomplishments.

That's not illogical, but Familiars by itself is a Minor Focus. Perhaps it could apply only to the binding, but that's not much use, except for the bond score.

I'd have to look at the Talisman rules again to see how big a deal that would be.

Scott

Of note there is that a familiar focus would apply to all totals involving a familiar. First time, third time retempering, whatever. If this was something that affected 'major events' I'd say it would only apply to the first instance of bonding a familiar for instance, and any subsequent instance would be 'minor' in comparison. If that makes any sense?

Yes, that's what I was saying. :slight_smile:

Scott

Okay, I can see that. When you first forge the Familiar Bond or first open a Talisman, it would apply. But subsequent follow up enchantments would not. Hmmm..., I don't think it would be much help for the Talisman, but for the Familiar's initial Bond score yes.