Table Talk - Development

I like the potential of this character. I of course like the Creo expert concept, as I also favor that. I also like the diverse approach to spells. I especially like the Silent aspect :slight_smile:

What is the deal with the Tarot cards though? I am not understanding.

This is purely a guess however a serious diviner or like mage that uses the Tarot identifies with given major/minor arcana cards. These cards, the influences associated with them, are seen as those playing an important part in the magus' life, or possibly even the 'ruling' influences. A similar association to say one's birth sign and horoscope in astrology, yet with the tarot. This could be the association he is trying to depict. And I for one find it rather flavorful if that is so. :slight_smile:

I do like the flavor, but I still do not understand the implications. I have done card readings for people before, I just make stuff up (I learned from the Gypsies; 3 questions, Health, Wealth, and Romance). From Chariot and Sword, I get Travelling Warrior, or Wandering Adventurer.

From my A. E. Waite Tarot manual... which while hardly an authoritative source, seems to be the 'standard' Tarot deck I've encountered in the USA.

The impression I get is of an ardent mystery seeker, eager for the secrets of the ancients though tempered with some circumspection. Removed perhaps from mundane influence or society, a mage's mage, neither noble nor priest. Accomplished in all manner of intellectual pursuits, a man of both strong intellect and education, pursuing more of it always, and always defeating any problems in that arena. Likely unconcerned with trivial mundane ethics or like concerns, obsessed with his intellectual pursuits. Strong in judgment, lacking in compassion... yet perhaps merciful despite his judgement.

I think this fits nicely with the concept.

Interesting interpretation. I can dig it.

Word of Wisdom, referring to the guide while doing a cold reading will kill the illusion. You just gotta watch their eyes as the react to whatever you make up. People respond to visual cues, so the specific artwork of the deck can invoke different responses for the same card from deck to deck. If you have the guide memorized and can spit out fancy words quick enough to keep the mark confused, yet still confident that you are knowledgeable, that works to your advantage. But basically, the trick to Taro cards (or rune tiles, palm reading, etceteras) is finding out what the mark wants you to tell them, and tell them in a cryptic fashion. They want to believe you, they will make up the gaps and fill in the blanks. All you need to do is portray confidence.

:laughing:, but that is real world Tarot. We are talking about Mythic Europe here :smiley:

I once was playing poker with a set of Tarot cards. I got a Royal Flush, and everyone at the table suddenly died.

That is a lie. I made that up :smiley:

All of this assumes you approach the mark/petitioner from a gypsy 'give me your money' perspective rather than a true occult divinatory perspective... regardless of what is true or what one believes in.

I posted the descriptions for reference, but basically I agree you shouldn't need to consult the manual during a reading, you should be relying on what you have rote and intuition/gnosis. But I don't try to confuse someone I read for, or tell them what they want to hear. I tell them what the cards 'say', and that has more than once been something they very much did not want to hear.

I'm not sure if I believe they have any intrinsic divinatory value/use or not. Honestly undecided. But I will say this. If they don't, they are amazing tools for tapping into people's subconcious, breaking down inhibitions, and whatnot.

Breaking Down Inhibitions is what I use it for :wink:. It is one of the techniques I practice in my persuit of the Venusian Arts.

The Gypsy "give me your money" perspective isn't exacty what you think it is. Basically, I see these ESP shops as cheap therapy. The cards break down inhibitions, and get the customer to start talking about their problems. No divination needed, they just start spilling their guts! The fortune teller gives out some common sense advice, but puts the authority of the cards behind what they say, and then the customer puts their faith in it. 10 dallars, versus spending 100 dollars an hour for a therapist that doesn't tell you anything. Who is the real rip off artist here?

But seriously, regardless of which way you believe, you will honestly get better readings watching their eyes than watching the cards. What the classical meaning of the card happens to be is not nearly as important as what the meaning it holds for the participants is.

Waaaay off topic. However, to state my thesis in a relevant way, I ask Arwan, what do the cards you chose mean to you, and how will it affect /has it affected the way you design and play the character?

I'm acquainted with somewhat different interpretations of the Arcana. I have chosen to use them because I have been invoking Arcana associations with Ars Magica characters for many years. They provide insights into the fundamental qualities of a character, expressing them in ways more profound than just Personality Traits.

The Chariot, in this context, refers to a blending and joining of forces. A mastery of two disparate aspects of his nature. You are quite correct in that it refers to many different interests and concerns, including intellectual pursuits, however, it goes deeper than that. Vares is two-natured. On the one hand he favours the virtues of subtly, stealth, introspection, and aloofness, granting a control over the Self that allows a greater command of that which is without as well. On the other, he desires and expresses a command over fundamental and Elemental forces, exerting his Will over the world in often dramatic ways.

The Moon embodies the dualism of secrecy and stealth, of Mysteries kept and Mysteries signaled at in the darkness, of the wild, primeval things which Man fears, and of the taming of them into that which is loyal, creating a guardian against those same dark places as well as a guide for one who would follow.

Both of the above are reflected in Vares' special command of magic. His Workings are Silent and Subtle, creations of thought and Will alone, shaped as he wishes in the moment. He has Flexible Magic, adjusting and modifying his castings. He understands magic on an intuitive as well as an intellectual level.

The King of Swords could as readily be the Knight of Swords. They are strength of Will, resolve, and identity. The latter reflects his questing nature, his desire to learn more, including that which is hidden (also, see the Moon). He does not solely accept the wisdom or the teachings of others, however, making his own interpretations of them. His values are his own, but he respects Loyalty, Wisdom, and Honour, as well as Courage (three of the four are virtues to the Knights of Seneca). A distinction is that the Wisdom need not be that espoused by others.

You are totally going to rock in this game :smiley: !! Welcome aboard!

Stuff like this makes the character breathe and live. Good characters run by good players are the essential life blood of any RPG campaign. And lots of detail is ideed a good thing. Even if I don't read it right away, lots of others certainly will. And I will eventually read every scrap and use it in game somehow. I draw a lot of inspiration from the player characters.

Thank you.

I'd like to add that I've identified Vares' Astrological correspondences. I considered Leo, briefly, but Libra is an almost perfect match across the board: Wisdom, Subtlety, Independence, Rebellion, Outwitting Others, and Arts and Letters (formal/esoteric learning, perhaps).

His birth House is X: Regnum. That reflects his ambition, desire to achieve, and his eye toward long-term gains.

There's no clear Planetary association, however. Jupiter and Mars both have elements, but so do others.

Interesting indeed :slight_smile:

Further details and associations for Vares:

Both the Suit of Swords and Libra are associated with the Element of Air. Although Vares exhibits a command of multiple Elements, his initial area of study and emphasis was greatest in Auram (and Mentem, which while an "Element of Spirit" is also connected with Air).

The Chariot could have a secondary or disguised significance. Vares' Flexible Magic and facility with reshaping magic to suit the moment has led some to suggest that he may be a "lost" descendent of Mutantes. No genealogical evidence has confirmed it one way or another, but it's been four centuries, and even Hermetic records are not always the best from the early years of the Order (witness the Apocrypha of Flambeau and Tremere). He could, just as likely, be a descendent of another of the ancient Mercurians. In any event, the Chariot's representation of "harnessed Powers" bears a resemblance to the Mutantan lineage's conceptualisation of magic, and could indicate a potential to eventually mirror the Tamed Magic ability of that lineage.

I say that Vare is good to go if no one has any objections. Just go though the development phase as I described, 40xp a year (average source quality 10), and several seasons of lab work tack on at the end. Then I will take over for about the last three years, representing the mentoring you recieved from Fuego (which may include some mysteries of Alchemy/Astrology if you so desire).

Vares' spell selection using his Art choices. Three years of total study, broken down by Art. Many are variations on existing spells.

Spells:
AQUAM: "Footsteps of the Slippery Oil" (CrAq 5) and "Pilum of Ice" (CrAq20: As "Dagger of Ice" CrAq5, but boosted to do +20 damage instead of +5); "Satiating the Drunkard's Thirst" (CrAq10) and "White Blade of Death" (CrAq15) -- 2 seasons

CORPUS: "Blessing of Rapid Recovery" (CrCo25: R: Touch, D: Moon, T: Individual; +12 to Recovery rolls for one month); "Revealed Flaws of Mortal Flesh" (InCo10), "Whispers Through the Black Gate" (InCo15) -- 2 seasons

IGNEM: "Transient Ward Against Heat and Flames" (ReIg15: As "Ward Against Heat and Flames" but R: Personal and D: Diameter) -- 1 season

IMAGINEM: "Revelations of the Far-Prying Eye" (InIm15: As "The Prying Eyes" InIm5, but with R: Sight) -- 1 season

MENTEM: "Assurance of the Tolerable Manner" (CrMe30: R: Personal, D: Momentary, T: Individual, Ritual: Permanently raises Communication by one step up to 0)
"Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit" (PeMe10), "Loss of But a Moment's Memory" (PeMe15)
"Command the Spirit" (ReMe25; As "Coerce the Spirits of the Night", but D: Sun, and affects spirits other than just ghosts) -- 3 seasons

TERRAM: "Acquisition of the Collector's Eye" (ReTe20: As "Invisible Hand of the Thief", but with R: Sight and due to edition changes can snag larger objects based on modified mass limits; Requisites for other Forms included) -- 1 season

VIM: "Strings of the Arcane Connection" (InVi20); "Shroud Magic" (MuVi 10), "Wizard's Communion" (MuVi10); "Demon's Eternal Oblivion" (PeVi10), and "Unraveling the Form of Mentem" (PeVi10) --3 seasons

Magic Theory gains 24 XP for 12 seasons of Lab study reinventing spells. It is now: Magic Theory 4(4) (Spells)

That covers Vares' earlier training. You can take him through the three years with Fuego, and then I'll finish him up from there.

I will be reviewing this over the weekend and will have a commentary for you on Monday. Some of your spells need examining. Blade of White Death is a WGRE spell. That's okay, because I like the WGRE :smiley:. But I will make sure everything fits in 5th edition mechanics. I am good at coversion :wink:

Have you given any thoughts as to what you want to accomplish with the caharcter? Lots of open possibilities here. I presume you wish to eventually become a member here. Proving yourself in an adventure should go a long way towards that goal.

Vares has a complex personality and many different contributing qualities. I'm not certain what you mean by "accomplish". In one regard, he is my first attempt to fully create and play a character in 5th Ed. In another, he embodies a chance to explore numerous ideas regarding the nature of magic.

Antoninus Exupereus was Vares' ultimate Parens, but it was another who first found him and initiated him (Opened to the Arts) in Hermetic Magic. That was done by Khalid of Ex Miscellanea, a Spirit Master from the Levant who discovered Vares when he was just 10. Khalid had intended to develop Vares' natural affinity with Magical beings (Alluring to Magic) and his perception of things "spiritual" (Second Sight), strongly encouraged by the boy's deep curiosity and knack for hidden things. Circumstances forced a change of plans within a year of taking Vares as an Apprentice, and in exchange for assistance and other favours, he was given to Antoninus Exupereus, who had somewhat different plans. Khalid, when last heard from, had returned to the Levant (where he had first met Antonius Exupereus, as both are Seekers) in search of ancient spirits.

As a member of House Flambeau, Vares is somewhat unusual. He has the ability and occasional desire to engage in open combat, enjoying the sensation of mustering and unleashing Elemental forces, however, he has a natural affinity for gathering information, for moving undetected, and for gaining access to places and secrets he should not. His understanding of magic is, as stated, as much intuitive and intellectual. One could say that his aptitudes are such that he is one whose Gift would have led to the creation of an independent magical tradition had he remained unintroduced to Hermetic Magic. His Workings push constantly at the boundaries of normal Hermetic Practices.

One of the Hermetic Limits which Vares excels in sidestepping is that of Arcane Connections. Oh, he is still bound by the Limit, but his ability to see and reach far places has led him to acquire collections of Arcane Connections to places. "Aquisition of the Collector's Eye", when combined with "Revelations of the Far-Prying Eye" allows him to gather specimens from different places, which he can then use in Flexible Magic adjusted to Arcane Connection range. He needs to bring up his Penetration for it, but once this is done, it will provide him with a way to gain a boost.

He also constantly observes himself and his environment, searching for Arcane Connections to them--and has figured out that, logically, one can invert the path of an Arcane Connection. The Law of Contagion states, "Once Together, Always Together". Although Arcane Connections can decay over time, any active ones should, theoretically, work in both directions. "Strings of the Arcane Connection" point the way. He can choose one and invoke a Flexibly-boosted "Revelations of the Far-Prying Eye" to Arcane Connection range, discovering what is at that location. This concept might be somewhat controversial, yet it should, by rights, work. Any Arcane Connection must, by definition, BE an Arcane Connection to the other end, linking the two. Of course, one may need to get through Magic Resistance to reach the other side, but that also provides clues from which to work.

I have a number of additional ideas for combat spells and techniques, if that is a more important part of the game. Variations on spells like "Endurance of the Berserkers", for example, or spells that create temporary 'Room'-equivalent structures from transparent ice (CrAq15-20, I believe) to generate Room Target zones. There's also "Silvery Scales of the Knight", which could have an intriguing, Alchemical variant. "Charge of the Angry Winds" is conventional, but one of the best possible spells for disrupting massed targets. Then there's a combination that would create Greek Fire, which can then be thrown, and ignited--and which should burn with nonmagical heat (the fire is, itself, not magical). Much depends on what types of adventures or scenarios in which he might become involved.

Looking closely at Vare, I must compliment you on a well planned out seedling. As far as you Favors Flaws goes, I suggest the Knights of Seneca or Fuego. I also suggest the Self Confident Virtue, as it has a huge impact on a young adventurer’s life and survival. You need to choose Specializations for all of your abilities. I made suggestions below, you can feel free to choose these or change them as you will. I nixed Art of Memory. I mean, it’s cool and all. But where would you learn it from and why? It doesn’t fit right. On second thought, I left it in. You decide to keep it or not, and where to put the xp’s. Pilium of Ice is calculated wrong, so I adjusted it. I altered Blessing of Rapid Recovery so that it more aptly resembles its name.

Then, upon further examination, it is my opinion that the character is a little weak to be a protégé of Frederique of Flambeau (a.k.a. El Fuego). I am adding three years of experience to the character (120xps), bringing him up to 12 years after Gauntlet. Then I have Fuego mentor him for the past three years. All in all, he taught/trained you Arts & Abilities for six seasons, trained you in spells for two seasons, and used up four seasons to Initiate you into Mysteries. This results in 60xps, 4 Minor Mysteries, and 186 levels of spells (his highest Lab Total is 93, and as long as one of the spells in each batch is a Creo Ignem spell, he can teach you that many levels of spells provided that they all fit within your own lab total).

As far as Mysteries go, Fuego teaches you what he knows, but he did not follow a single unified mystery path. There is a variation of the Green Cockrel in Iberia (but I can’t think of a good name yet), plus other mysteries he has dabbled in. He is also quite the experimenter (Int +5 & Inventive Genius), and has rediscovered ancient secrets plus developed a few of his own innovations. For now, I shall call it Alchemy Lore, representing the not so mysterious mysteries frequently traded amongst Iberian magi. It involves elements of Astrology and Spirit Magic, but these are Alchemical in their focus. The end goal that Fuego seeks (and has yet to achieve) is not an Elixir, but rather he seeks Permanent Natural Transformation.

The end results: I raised Ignem to 5 (so that your elemental Forms are in balance); Corpus to 6, Vim to 6; Creo to 11; Rego to 6, Magic Theory, Parma Magica and Single Weapon each to 4; then Brawl, Penetration, Philosophiae, and Alchemy Lore each to 2. I Initiated the Mysteries of Planetary Magic, Vulgar Alchemy, Hermetic Alchemy, and Lesser Periapts. Finally, I added the following long list of spells…

Batch I (93 levels): ReCo15 Wizard’s Leap, CrIg20 Pilium of Fire, InIg5 Compass of the Vigilant Flame, InVi3 Scent of Raw Vis, InVi5 Scales of the Magical Weight, InVi5 Sense the Nature of Vis, ReVi15 Transfer the Essence of Vis, ReVi25 Divide the Gathered Essence,

Batch II (93 levels): CrMe15 Heart of the Lion, CrMe15 Panic of the Trembling Heart, CrAq25 Alchemist’s Revenge, CrIg3 Moonbeam, CrIg15 Test of the Flames, CrTe20 Pilium of Iron

The rest is up to you. Select one to five years of additional development. This is to be retrofitted to before you became Fuego’s protégé, or alongside that time. The last thing he did was Initiate you into the Mystery of Lesser Periapts. Lesser and Greater Periapts are Alchemical Mysteries that depend on Astrology. Lesser Periapts operate exactly the same as Astrological Periapts. You don’t know what Greater Periapts are, just that it is something Fuego has recently discovered.

Oh, also presume you made a Longevity potion at the appropriate time. Your CrCo Lab Total is 33 (assuming an Aura of 5).

My further opinion, I think your abilities are too diverse. I would drop Art of Memory, and even Second Sight (taking a Minor Magic Focus, Special Circumstances, or Potent Magic; having something to do with your birth sign or planet or that Tarot Arcana thing you are interested in). You have a lot of different Suprnatural Lore skills, which is cool, but I don’t think you really need all of them. Profession-Engineer? Other scores may bbe too low, but you can increase those. I suggest Mastering a few spells, and if you don’t like everything Fuego taught you, change one or two spells (keep the CrIg though). Give yourself a Twilight Episode too. Have fun with it.

What's the recalculated stats for "Pilum of Ice"? If it's ineffective, he'll have chosen something else.

Profession: Engineering will have a specialisation in Fortifications. Useful for any soldier/warrior in the time period. His diverse Abilities represent a very basic grounding in many different things from his travels and studies. I'll spend further study improving existing Abilities. Art of Memory does fit for any scholar (Artes Liberales 3+) and certainly for anyone who pursues Alchemy or Astrology.

I'll work on further development when I have time. I'm not adverse to an Astrological Minor Focus, or one in Tarot, if you think that's appropriate, but Second Sight is something he needs for Spirit Mastery. At least it's an Ability which could have been taught.

I'll go with Self-Confident since you recommend it so strongly. It fits as well as Strong-Willed would.

How do I calculate the intensity of the Twilight episode? There are rules for determining resolution, but none for ascertaining the strength of one during Detailed Character Creation. I can see now that Self-Confident certainly improves the chances of surviving and comprehending Twilight, though I'd been thinking that it would generally be smarter to spend the Confidence Point to evade a botch chance in a dangerous spellcasting situation.

I had written up Pilium of Ice, but decided not to post it. But basically, you started with level 5 when it Societates it is listed as level 10. It does too much damage.

Engineering is indeed useful for a soldier, and though you know that profession, you are not a soldier. You are a magus. The answer was supposed to be for building an Armillary Shphere :wink:.

Not every scholar has Art of Memory. It is supposed to be rare and exceptional. You can have it, it is all good. I just don't see how it will be useful to you, and it marks you as quite unusual. But its cool.

I saw no spirit mastery on your sheet, nor do I intend for Fuego to teach you any. So I didn't realize Second Sight would be important. Go ahead then. You need a much higher Rego score though :slight_smile:

Confidence points cannot evade botches, the can only alter rolls. There is a Heroic virtue that makes an exception. But anyway, just choose a number. You don't have to add a Twilight Episode, only if you want to. But just choose nay number you want and roll. 2 points? 5? 12? Remember, the Twilight Strength affects what sort of Virtues & Flaws you can acquire.

I think the relative rarity of 'Art of Memory' is something that has changed with the editions. That and I think the slightly more commoness of it now is more in keeping with the historical setting.