Table Talk (OOC)

Hi everyone. As the newest addition to the troupe, I feel like I'm the least qualified to comment on this discussion. But if my perspective can help find a resolution, then I offer it in that spirit.

I'm sure we all agree that we want to enable SGs to focus as much time as possible on story content. One approach to get there, that you mention Arthur, is to implement SG fiat. But I don't think that will work well long-term - there's a great risk for the accumulation of frustrations that leads to player turnover. I feel similarly to Gaxxian that it's important to hash out differences of opinion/interpretation on the rules, and align as a group to keep everyone engaged. The only potential antidote I've thought of so far to rules discussion burnout, is to share the effort across more people. A Judge/Lawyers approach, to mimic Gaxxian's Judge/Jury description. Not with the intent of diluting your authority - the Alpha SG still gets the final say, especially if there's a gap in the rules or we can't come to a consensus. Could that work? Provided we are thorough and focused on finding a well-supported solution?

For the specific spell design issue at hand, I think there was unfortunately a derailing early on caused by a math error. Here is a table of how size modifiers scale the volumes of stone structures, using 1 pace = 3 ft = 0.91 m, and with 10X factors applied to the base individual size of 1 pace^3.

Size Modifier Volume (pace^3) Volume (m^3) Volume (ft^3)
+0 1 0.8 27
+1 10 7.5 270
+2 100 75 2,700
+3 1,000 754 27,000
+4 10,000 7,536 270,000
+5 100,000 75,357 2,700,000
+6 1,000,000 753,571 27,000,000

A bit of a tangent: The "clarification" about how size of a target should scale with mass is actually in the core rules (see 2nd paragraph in Targets and Sizes box on pg 113. But I think they shouldn't have introduce a different way to measure size here. The example they give - that a +1 (5 level) boost to a Corpus spell allows it to affect a giant that is 15 ft tall (and presumably of larger than +0 girth), not 6 x 10 = 60 ft tall (if a +0 human is 6 ft tall) - suggests that all 3 dimensions of an object are meant to be included in the scaling. But I don't think we need to apply that limit to every Form or situation. Similar to the question about dome area, as long as we take the consequences of medieval physics into account, we should be able to scale dimensions arbitrarily for some things. For example, why couldn't you make a wooden plank that's 10X longer than the base individual plank, but has the same thickness and width, if that aspect ratio is strong enough to persist? In any case, I suggest that we stick with scaling volumes by 10X for each factor of +1 as done in the table, since the sizes of base individuals for most of the Forms are given units of volume, not mass.

According to one of his posts, Gaxxian's structure has a target volume of 650 m^3, so, interpolating within the table, it should require a size modifier of +3, which I think was the original proposal. This spell would theoretically allow creation of a structure that's up to 750 m^3 in volume. So a full reckoning of the spell would be Level 25 (base 3, +0 Momentary, +1 Touch, +3 Size, +2 Complexity for a less exciting design with few internal rooms). Do we want to apply a Finesse check to see how lopsided the dome turns out to be? :face_with_peeking_eye:

Using the same approach for the structure created by Conjure the Mystic Tower, it has a volume of 90k ft^3 if square or 70.7k ft^3 if circular. So it needs a size modifier of +4, since the 27k ft^3 from +3 are not enough. Can a magus invent a version of this spell that makes a 270k ft^3 structure with the same +4 size modifier? I'd say yes, that should be allowed.

Another, more obvious tangent: Conjure the Mystic Tower creates a tower that is roughly as tall as this one, but about half the diameter. It's hard to get a good sense of size from just the numbers, at least for me, but the image helps drive it home. I think it is quite a large structure for the middle ages. Huge even. The standard sanctum and lab, according to Covenants (which I'm not sure if we are using here), fits on one floor if such a tower (~700 ft^2). If the standard sanctum + lab has a ceiling of 10 ft, and therefore a volume of 7000 ft^3, Alba's lab is going to be big enough to fit almost 4 of them. I'm providing these numbers for a sense of scale, and to compare to what other magi will have. It may not be a reasonable expectation for a maga to be able to create something so big, only 5 years out of gauntlet and with apprentice-level CrTe Art scores (Cr=6, Te=1, in the latest sheet; sorry if I missed CrTe advancement that you were already planning to do). And even if the structure-creating spell is designed properly, and if Alba's Art scores are high enough (or will need time to increase before she can invent/cast the spell), will there be any consequences to having such a structure appear on covenant grounds?

In any case, I hope very much that the saga will carry on, and am open to helping in any way I can.

2 Likes

Hey Emelric :slight_smile:

Tbh, its very possible that my maths weren't precise ^^! At some point I started to use several online conversors in chain to ft and meters and paces and surely I messed something in one point or another xD

Anyways, the argument was more complex and have several parts.
Since at that thread it was very long and has a lot of messages, I will try to summarize them here as best as I remember, so you (and everybody) can stay up to date if you so wish:

  1. On one side, we have the interpretation of the base individual from the literal wording of the text. Since in some Forms the description is more flavorful than others, with an strict reading you can interpret whatever you want.
    In the case that arised the issue, its the base Individual from Herbam: "(...) is a plant roughly one pace in each direction".
    To me, that means that Herbam = Stone with Terram and thats it. I've never felt the need to calculate the exact amount of air between the leaves and branches, or if the plant is be a woody plant or not (or if its the same plant in Spring or Fall), so we can know the exact amount of vegetal mass inside that single pace3 just to know the real volume of the base individual for Herbam... more than anything because that would just make it subjective and overly complex for no real gain (and that if the author wanted that, he would said so directly).
    Same as I've never had the need to know how the exact amount of fatness that a base Corpus Individual person have (we know how tall is a Size +1 person, but not how much weights, right?).
    I can give more examples, but I think that I made clear my point.

  2. On other side, the total amount of material that you can create will also change with the final shape.
    If you make a wall, or a bridge, there is no problem.
    But if you want to make a hollow structure, its not about the material base individual anymore, but about the structure total area.
    So you can make a cubic trash can with 1.2 paces each side, but you cannot make a hollow box of the same dimensions. Even if the box have holes... the exact amount of holes until the shape is "open enough" is subjective.

  3. And last, we have the interpretation of the Group size. In the 2nd paragraph in Targets and Sizes box on pg 113. it's clarified that a +1 Size doesn't mean that the 1 pace3 cube now its 10x10x10 paces big, but like 10 same sized cubes.
    And why I talk about +1 Size when I should talk about Group? Well, because the new interpretation of Group comes from that text (idk why). Since the text mentions that example, it gets interpreted as the object mass... like in density, weight... and as such is translated into Group (thing that doesn't happen in Individual, only in Group), so suddenly, to the previous calcs, you also have to add the need to calculate if the exact material that you are doing is more or less dense.
    Following that interpretation, the final amount will change depending on if you want to make pumice vs granite. Or iron vs lead. Or charcoal vs oak planks.
    Thats also the point that, as I said, turns some Forms into true problems... whats the "mass" of an illusion? Or a fire? Or a mind?
    Again, as I see it, its another layer of extra maths and complexity that also generates direct problems with some Forms.

Iirc, that was all about. At this point I don't care about the spell to make my Sanctum, but about how messy and unnecessary all this seems to me.
Maybe I'm perceiving it as more complex than it is. Idk. But to my understanding this is not supported by the books and its a houserule that make everything much harder to calc...
I don't want to imagine wanting to spontcast something with all these extra rules.

Let's not derail things back into math (at least here), shall we? :wink:

Thanks for being direct, Arthur. Here my two cents:

I think some discussion about the rules is unavoidable in this saga, since the burden of the SG is supposed to be shared between us all. That said, I can stand behind "the Alpha SG's word is law". To nitpick about the rules is what the rest of the forum is for, IMHO. ^^

I don't think sharing the effort to discuss the rules among several people is the best way to go forward, not for a PbP game. If possible I'd rather we just accept whatever ruling is made by the SG running the scene/activity at the moment it is called for and we revisit it if later we find out it's not working (or sooner if there is reason/time to). Not to curb the discussion itself, mind you, but to avoid us to stop and reexamine the entire wheel at every bump of the road.

Of course, it's easy for me to propose this when the current stalemate was caused by discussing rules that barely affect my character. And since they do affect a significant portion of what another character can do, some discussion of the rules is necessary... But it did end up getting out of hand.

To end this comment with my (possibly unpopular) opinion: I don't think the exact value of 1 base individual of [Form] is going to have a major impact on the long run, as long as it's within the same order of magnitude. The base indivudual fo Herbam (as resulted from the discussion) is roughly the size of 1 base individual of Herbam (that is, no one would say it's 10 times what one would expect, nor 1/10 of the expected) and will end up changing spell levels by at most (but not always) 1 magnitude, on the cases the spell is being developed at or close to the limits of the proper volume. Not worth the time and stress.

That discussion started in a thread that suppossedly its to discuss those things. Its not a scene, and shouldn't in itself cause any problems in existing scenes.
In fact, its to avoid possible issues that I began to propose the spell so far ahead in time (looking at previous cases of changes in rules), so we could have everything straigh before it could cause delays in real scenes.

If those threads aren't there to discuss things about our characters, they should be closed to avoid misunderstandings.

Thats why I proposed to remove my character from the game and start from scratch. To avoid having to play with all those overly complex rules.
I don't like the idea, but it preferable to me to the alternative.

First, this problem is more complex than that, and as I wrote in my previous post there are more layers that cause the issue to me.
If it just was the change into the base individual size, I was willing to accept it and overlook it, but not when you add all the other points after that.

Second, saying that an Herbam Group spell (so, base x10) is 5 to 8 paces, its from a 50% to a 20% nerf.
And remember that we reached those numbers only after you intervened. Initially it was 2 to 3 paces for Base x10 Herbam. Luckily we had a discussion about that and the interpretation changed... if it weren't for that my Form would be unplayable (if we couldn't discuss those things... then what I would do?).
And also, since this is just one of the points, remember too that this size was just for charcoal, if I want to make another material, the base size will change again for sure.


So, my points are:

  • If we cannot talk about this, then it should be made clear into the threads that seemingly are made to discuss these things.
  • If in the past we wouldn't have talk about this, now we would be stuck with a base Herbam around 70-80% smaller :frowning: And this is just 1/3 of the total problem.
  • If all of this is here to stay, I'm willing to finish one of my earlier concepts (with Imaginem) and play with it. Ofc that would mean removing Alba from the game.

Again, not saying we should stop discussing (not that we would, even if I were).

Let me make this about me. I have twice now experimented in the lab with Regulus, both times resulting in side effects that required the SG intervention. The first one resulted in a major (but not fatal) flaw in the spell, and the proposed effect decided by the SG is, IMO, a tiny bit closer to fatal than to major (hey, to be fair Arthur gave me two options, and I might have gone with the harsher one).

It was not a "proper" scene, it was on the character discussion topic, and I totally could have stopped things to iron out the limits of "major" and "fatal". Instead I just moved on. I might end up revisiting that in the future (even if just as a rule to measure against if a major flaw happens again while I experiment), but there, at that moment, I thought it was not necessary. It is a discussion that can, if needed, happen later.


I'm not saying the discussion of Herbam is on the same class. It has further and far reacher implications. It was appropriate and necessary to stop and discuss it there and then. But the discussion overstayed it's practical usefulness, to the point of sapping the energy of the people involved. On both sides.

This isn't just a matter of changing the character to use other Arts, because differences in rulings and interpretations are bound to happen again. Ars is a complex game, after all. Unless we manage to find common ground (note the word "common", not "middle"; 'twas deliberate) and move forward...Idk.

1 Like

Since there are no hard/clear rules about whats "major" and what's "fatal", its bound to be a very subjective decision.
I can undestand that you want to the spell to be played in-game before you tell something, since sometimes its not just how its written, but how its played.

For example, I feel the same with the decision of being able to change the duration of Watching Ward.
As I see it, if some part of a spell is "special", then you cannot change it without a Breakthought. In that case, the duration is special because you can add a trigger to the spell to finish it when its needed (its an "Until" duration if you want).
So, changing it to "Solar" or "Moon" would mean that, as all regular durations, the spell couldnt finish before... it would finish when the duration expires, not a single second before or after (there is a Virtue to be able to finish spells before its time expires for a reason).
But I didn't insisted into that point more, since I want to wait until I see it in play in-game too.

So, I understand that point. And again, I don't need to agree on everything anyway. If the group (or the Alpha SG in this case) want to play it like that, then go ahead.

To be fair, this discussion is still open because I still need to know some clarifications about how this system works with different Forms. Remember that this started with Herbam, but we continued with Terram. So I want to understand how we must play before we continue.

This case is like mid-game its decided to make Ars Magica spells works like in Vancian Magic (D&D system) but then its never exactly defined know how many spells or of which magnitude we can cast each day.

Again, I insist, I can live without agreeing about something, but not without understanding whats the change or how it works :frowning:
At least, that how I'm seeing it right now. And thats why I keep discussing the same topic, because my questions and doubts aren't being answered.

Is it an unreasonable request?

Ars is complex, but remember that here we are talking about changing how sizes works. So, basically we are houseruling 1/3 of the spell basic function ^^! Thats a pretty big change imho. Its not like we are deciding that X spell have this or Y spell works like that.

And I would love to find a common ground. But if there is a part that doesn't want that, we will never reach it. Apparently thats why the discussion never served any purpose in first place :frowning: (Edit: making memory, the discussion also turned more messy because (iirc, take it with a grain of salt), Arthur claimed that the interpretation of the points I mentioned in the previous post was RAW, thus leading into a side conversation about that too).

Arthur wants the Alpha SG to be the only voice. So ok, now I know that and I will avoid starting discussions about his decisions in the future. If thats what he wants thats ok with me (seriously!).

But I also think that making a houserule so big and then handwaving the specifics its not far from playing without rules imho (in the spell category).

1 Like

Working on an post that will try to answer the main elements. It might take a while, since there are many things. But just letting you know that I'm working on it.

1 Like

Taking this much needed vacation has been good (am still in vacation till Tuesday). Will post my own thoughts once I get back.

2 Likes

Don't worry Arthur, we also went along with the conversation and we expanded the topic even further... ^^! So its normal.
Thanks for letting us know anyway :slight_smile:

I'm very happy to know that :slight_smile:
I hope everything goes well... and see you when you get back ^^

1 Like

Ok, so am back, and adjusting back to work.

Here's my two cents.

I've not played Ars Magica that long, only about 3-4 years. But I have been playing RPGs for over 30 years. And I feel like this Saga is on the precipice.
If we want this Saga to continue, and I think we all do, then we need to address some issues, for it to continue. Some of the things I may write may sound harsh, but please don't take them as personal criticism. That's NOT my intent. The're just painful lessons learned in 30+ years of experience.

In most traditional games, when there's one GM, the rule of "The GM is the final Arbiter" makes a lot of sense, and while Ars Magica is a Troupe-Play, there's usually one SG at a time. That rule cited above isn't always perfect, since I've seen games flop due to the SG/GM's rulings. Sometimes it's because the rule is too crippling for a specific player/character, or they're contradictory, or just seem mean. Sometimes, it's because there was just a huge difference in how the player and SG saw the issue.

And yes, sometimes players, who in D&D tend to be called Rules-Lawyers, tend to bog the game down with rules questions and quotations, and it makes the game less fun for everyone involved.

But this is a Trouple-play, and we need to reach some consensus on most cases. And only rarely should the main SG put his foot down and call judgement, unless it's been spelled out in the House Rules of the game. Because then players come in knowing full well, if they've read the House Rules, about the changes, and can adjust their characters to account for them.

That said, I do think, on the point of Herbam individual target, that cutting the volume down by 30-50%| is wrong. No other Form gets it's volume cut down by the "air" in the volume. That would be my vote on the matter.

2 Likes

@Arthur are you still with us?

I'm still here. Still wrestling with what to write. :frowning:

2 Likes

Ok, at this point its clear to me that the idea is to let the Saga die on its own to avoid having to face anything...

But wouldn't it be better to be honest and say that you are not going to continue? That would give the opportunity for the rest of us to try to revive the Saga if we wish, so we don't lose all the work.

1 Like

That was not my intent, but a post like that (accusatory and ascribing a nefarious intent to me) is certainly making things easy for me.

The saga is over.

1 Like

You are the first who has been continuously and for a long time disrespectful to several people just through ignoring them for a long, long time. And lying to us too, since you said that you were "working" into an answer that clearly you didn't even started.
You are also the one that tried to gaslight me months ago, although I overlooked it because I wanted to think that you didn't do it on purpose (I still think like that, btw).

Now you have the nerve to turn yourself into the victim? Ok, whatever you want. You can throw the board from the table in anger if that makes you feel better.

Ok, this is moving far past the point of civil conversation. We can wrap things here, right?

Arthur, thanks for your work so far. I'm really sorry you don't feel like going on with the saga at this moment. If this ever changes, or if you want to start a different one in the future, I'd be pleased if you would let me know.

For all the others, both the ones present and the ones who left us, I also thank you. It has been a (mostly) joyous ride.

3 Likes

@Gaxxian Obvisouly, you have passed judgment on my actions and my intents. Nothing I can say from this point on will change your mind. So I won't even try.

@RafaelB Thanks. If I ever pick up this saga again (boudtful but not impossible) or I decide to start a new one, I'll be happy to have you as part of it. It's been a pleasure playing with you.

To all, my apologies again for how things ended. I will freely admit that I made several mistakes when I set up the saga and during it. I will try to do better the next time. I'm pretty sure there will be a next time, for I love this game. But it will take time before I do.

3 Likes

Am sorry to see this saga die. And I acknowledge that my situation may have contributed to it's demise, and for that am truly sorry.

It was a pleasure to be a part of it while it lasted.

3 Likes

I don't know about you intents, but judging on actions is... exactly how it works? "You will know them by their fruits", isn't it?
To be clear, i'm not judging you as a person, i don't know you nor your personal situation (and from what i saw, you aren't a bad person), but i can judge your actions as an Alpha SG (and then you can choose to ignore me, ofc, thats totally fair).

And here you judge me from what you think that my reactions would be before they happen... We aren't so close for you to know how i would react :face_with_diagonal_mouth: It's not fair from your part.

Well... yeah? You had a month but you didn't tried... meanwhile the Saga was slowly dying :man_shrugging:
That was the problem. Or at least, that was the point that i tried to make into the post were i tried you to react...
Don't make it sound like it is my fault that you didn't.

Imho you shouldn't acknowledge your mistakes and apologize for them at the same time that you are acting resentful to somebody that got angry at you for those same mistakes :frowning:

At the same time, and letting all our differences aside, i really wish you the best into the future and also that my constant nitpicking here doesn't stop you from trying this Saga again in the future.


@Red-Shadow-Claws I'm surprised that nobody told you this earlier, but i'm sure that i'm talking for everyone when i tell you that you have literally 0 reasons to apologize. Seriously! :open_mouth:

For starters, your situation didn't contribute to the end of the Saga at all... and even if that were the case (it isn't, but let's suppose) your situation its not your fault.
I'm sure that, if it were up to you, the situation in your life and your country would be very different. So, please, don't apologize for that.

That makes 2 of us. It's sad that this Saga is ending, but it was a good travel together.


Thank you for being a bastion of calmness and common sense :slight_smile: It was a pleasure playing with you, even if it was for less time than I would have wanted.

2 Likes