I was going to give lots of explanations and justifications but it won't serve any purpose. I have my reasons and my style of play. Others have their own and no matter what I say they will interpret as they will. Case in point: Seeking to clarify is someone understood a certain aspect of a oath didn't say he couldn't be that way or be a non-hippocratic healer, it was just making sure that aspect was known. I thought I explained in my post about the oath why I raised issue (I had been smacked around ten different ways for wanting to use the oath and it s details in another game) but you know, it really doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to seek conflict but I had it shoved in my face (including in PMs).
I have my character and I trust Max to run the game. The key is that I will let him judge the conflicts. I will let him call for rolls if he needs them, he has shown he is very good about it in other games. If something is said that it will be left Max to Judge, that is where it should be left.
I really liked what I saw in the sundered eagle table of contents and book description that drew my attention. A land torn between church and the old religions with all the greek gods stirring and being active.
A tribunal that is perhaps among the most pagan other than Novgorod with long histories and richness that is Greece. Something that is perhaps even battle ground between east and west church as much as church and judaism, islam and pagan traditions.
I never wrote you any PM's.
And you were directly antagonistic to Stavros, so much so that I had to retire the character.
Commenting about the Hipocratic Oath is fine. But it should have been done in Table-Talk, not the character sheet. The way it was posted and written kind of came off in a deroggatory tone.
I must admit, I have had some trouble deciding how / if I want to respond to all of this. But in the end I've decided, I'm going to take a page out of Max's book and respond with blunt honesty.
You know what LadyP? You're totally right, I don't like you on a OOC level. You joining this game sapped all my motivation to play and made me toy with quitting. Trust me when I say that I'm not the only member of the Saga who felt this way. However I decided that I would try to put my OOC feelings aside and enjoy the Saga regardless of your presence. You don't get to claim ignorance, you knowingly joined a Saga where three of current members just do not like you. You create a character that starts pointedly harassing another PC and making comments that are just offensive to others. Then you start whining about OOC bias? No, you made IC comments / actions that alienated Kallista from the other Magi, deal with it.
See? This is why nobody wants to / bother debating with you. If someone's response includes things that you can't alter to fit into your twisted view of things you just ignore the post. Again I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, however it happened in Andorra and it is happening here. So tell me, did you just totally miss my response where I explained the differences in the Mercurian Cults? More specifically I was talking about the Neo-Mercurians and their views of the 'Gods' as nothing more than powerful spirits. A Redcap with such views is in no way restricted from being a Christian. As Marko has pointed out, while Pagan groups do indeed exist and even thrive in the Order, the majority of Magi are followers of the Monotheistic Religions as of 5th Edition.
As for your wild claims that Odysseus is a "super religious christian", would you care to explain how any moderately faithful member of a Monotheistic Religion could not be offended by Kallista's statements? Tell ya what, since you ignored my response about those, let me refresh your memory!
And after all this discussion about diplomacy, about playing nice with others, about attempting to show some modicum of tact we get this.
So tell me, how could one not take offense to these statements? And don't tell me that Kallista meant this or that, she said the afore mentioned things, so what she meant to say means nothing. And if Odysseus really was a "super religious christian" then Kallista would have been dead for saying such things. Instead he asks nicely that she show some restraint and the respect that he has extended to her beliefs? Her response you ask? Claims of OOC bias, death threats, censorship etc. As I've said before, Kallista has the grace and tact of an Atomic Bomb. She has made her bed, now she must lay in it.
Yes, but most of those Pagans show an ounce of tact. They don't run around screaming "G-d is the enemy, he hates magic!". The reaction was way over proportion? I distinctly remember you getting mad when other players tried to tell you how to play your Magi. So do me the favor of not being a giant hypocrit? As I've said before, I'm Jewish and I took offense to those statements, so why wouldn't a character who is moderately Christian in 1220 do so? And if I may be so bold, who the hell are you to tell me that Odysseus isn't Christian? Did LadyP suddenly become Odysseus' player when I wasn't looking? No? Then with all due respect? Shut up.
Honestly? If that's how you felt, you would have not joined this Saga. As I've said previously, Vort, Marko and I do not like you, yet you decided to join. Again, that's fine, attempts were made to 'play nice with others' as it were, but you created a character that is at odds with really anyone that is even moderately Christian. When Kallista made comments that were offensive to others, at first she smirked and then proceeded to get all defensive, acting as if the big bad Christians were going to kill her! No, she provoked conflict and now you as the player seek to hide behind Max to prevent what would realistically happen ( IE: Wizards War / Certamen )
Funny you should mention OOC demands. In almost all of your IC posts where Kallista is arguing you bring Meta-game comments into your posts in an attempt to back up Kallista's arguments. Again, in the spirit of Max and total honesty? I don't want you here. But, I do not want to see this game broken up over all of this. However if Kallista continues to make comments like her most recent one, conflict is inevitable. If that is what you/she desires, by all means, please continue ( Tytalus and all that )! However please cease with your claims of OOC bias when there are clear IC reasons for characters to despise her.
Max, I want to thank you for putting all of this work into getting the Saga ready for play. It is my hope that the Saga does not crumble, however changes of some kind are going to be required. At the end of the day, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one.
This is not what I wanted. I am not part of any crusade to persecute another member of my community. I just don't want to be harassed or picked on. LadyP, you don't have to agree with my perception, you just have to realize that I feel that way. I am now playing Simon, a background character, and he wants nothing to do with nothing. That's all I want. Joo, dude you are my friend, but I think you need to reign it in. I never agreed to be part of a crusade. I just want to be left alone.
Max, I am more than willing to just fade away. I did not mean to start such trouble or bring my personal baggage along with me.
I am hardly attempting a 'Crusade' of any kind Marko. As I said, do I like LadyP? No. Am I willing to play with her? Yes. Are OOC feelings going to blend into IC? I do my best to avoid such a thing, but I'm only human. But no, this is not me attempting to persecute LadyP mate, this is me just making a point.
The point was this. A character was created that is hostile to the Divine, Outspoken, Tactless and generally just plain Rude. That's all well and good, makes for fun RP etc. However to expect other characters not to react strongly is just silly. Then to claim that OOC bias / bad RP was causing all of it... It''s just plain insulting.
Like I said, I don't want to see this Saga die. I am willing to work harder put my OOC feelings aside, however I'd ask that Kallista tone down her Anti-Divine Rhetoric ( at least in front of Odysseus ) otherwise he will respond like he did previously.
That is you reading into things that you want. I could say you made overzealous christian character but you know, this arguing is not going anywhere. My character does not like the dominion. She sees the dominion and spread of dominion as harmful to the order and magic in the world. This is a fact. She is going to stay that. You keeping saying she is tactless and such and yet she is helping the covenant actually arrange to build a new church and priest (admittedly one that will not cause covenant trouble). Maybe instead I should have been sabotaging this and saying we should not help them get a new church. Let them rot in the existing one.
In the debates of the order, she didn't swear, she didn't curse, she didn't mock, she didn't call god evil. She called it hostile to magic. GUESS WHAT: IN THE GAME, IT IS. If it wasn't there wouldn't be -3x aura from her shapeshifting or -3x aura from her hermetic magic. She did not back down from her position which is factually correct. Sorry that your christians can't tolerate a heathen/pagan saying christanity is the enemy.
this will be my last post in OOC on it, IC though she will still call it a hostile power because face facts, it is.
I had been enjoying this Saga, but now we are allowing it to descend into Soap Opera. I don't know any of you outside of this forum (at least, not to my knowlege - Namgyal is my real name and I live in South Wales - I have a 3 year old, a bad back, a wonderful wife and I run a steelworks for a living). I don't know the history between some of the players, and don't want to. Interpersonal history is frequently best ignored - and from the snippets I've read here it will have to be forgotten for this Saga to continue in its present form.
Max has given us a clear instruction, and, as far as I can tell from the posts I've seen, some parties are willing to follow it and some are not.
The instruction was - in brief - "learn to get along and change your characters if that is necessary to enable people to get along". The consequences if this doesn't happen are (in my opinion) that we will sap poor Max's will to live, and he will drop the campaign.
So, my proposal is (1) we ask Max to drop (or write up) the Bishop story line, and to create a non-religious story line to avoid further conflict and (2) we commit to demonstrating a willingness to change our characters so as to not cause offense to other players.
Can we all commit to that?
If not, then anyone who doesn't demonstrate willingness to change and the capacity both to forgive and apologise should be ejected from the game - and Max should be the sole arbiter of that.
Religious story lines are a problem where there are pagans and non-pagans because anything a pagan says against christianity can be called blasphemy and anything the christians say can be called blasphemy by the pagans regarding their religion. It can be good for part of the group when they split up. It can make for good plots for an established covenant where there is some sort of plot that has church involved but building a new church and bringing in a new priest in covenant of mixed religions is going to cause problem as new plot.
Still, we are getting through it though we will see what happens. It seems as if the others might have it in control that Kallista will just stay in the room for a couple days. Maybe wander the city doing healing (in praise of Apollo and Aceso)
The purpose of the Meeting with the Bishop story is to introduce a mundane power amongst many that will perhaps interfere with the covenant in some way. Also I had the ideas of making sure that the covenant gets a priest for the village that could cause some story when he encounters the local customs of the villagers. I might drop that one due to our conflict in the group. This story is a simple one as I am introducing one of the major powers. Earlier you wished for lots of mundane related stories so that is what I am trying to comply with the earlier wishes. But sure I can set that one aside and make the other mundane powers more meddlesome.
Yeah, but sending the mages to recruit and have them bring in the mundane opposition is not the friendliest. Especially when you are asking pagans to help build a christian church. Are the christian mages going to help build a temple to the greek gods as well so that Kallista can convert them and make the entire area a magical place?
This is the source of the conflict. My character is not going to stop seeing the dominion as a threat to magic. Mundane stories are good, conflict with mundanes are good. Asking the mages to build the mundane threat to themselves does seem a bit much? Especially to the whole council.
Kallista is not going to go out killing christians for being christians (even if a form is lioness, getting peasant out of her teeth is a pain, she prefers deer and fish (she loves fish)). She is not going like dominion or christian god and will call him hostile to her. This is not a good or evil judgement. Islam and christian are hostile to each other and fight each other but both are divine/dominion religions. This is an X impedes me, weakens me and works against my might. It is hostile to me and I don't want it spreading. Please take her comments in that vein.
I have sundered eagle and it makes things very interesting.
First is the heavy tribunal disapproval of Certamen in many areas.
Every covenant is required to have a patron supernatural being that their covenant is dedicated to (strong pagan roots.). This is normally magical creature of some might but could be faerie. There is a yearly ritual tha empowers it.
Third there are organized leagues of which one is linked to the church and god and trying to remove pagan elements from tribuanl (current target is the annual ritual that empowers the patron)
Vis is very plentiful and among other things, AT least 1 mage per year gets their longevity curtesy of the tribunal and Magical healing is expected if you have the vis. Creo is fairly abundant vis type. It is also a very giving tribunal so much so that vis trading rates are better than in HoH: TL for mercere.
very democratic and very focused on public service.
Classical greek is the language of the tribunal that anyone raised here with Greek as language doesn't need to buy Latin.
There is a lot more but I have only touched the roots.
Sounds like an interesting book… I am looking forward to it. And yes the church could be a mundane opposition but in this story I give you an opportunity to find a priest that perhaps has lived amongst magi rather than the flaming crusade type.
I've been going over the book myself actually. As it stands, the concept / view of my Redcap doesn't really fit the themes of the Tribunal ( Side effect of building a character without the book I spose ). So with the permission of y'all, I'd like to change concepts. I've been toying with a Criamon on the Path of Strife actually. It has the added benefit of removing a large amount of the conflict that currently exists between characters.
I also suggest we write summaries for each forum thread once it is closed. Being unable to post for a few days and then realising that I do not find back into the game easily has been a major problem for me in the past (same goes for forgetting what I posted a year or two ago). I volunteer to write the summary of the bishop's visit (and of course I am willing to edit it, should anyone feel I've omitted important information.
