Table Talk

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Canaries Are Dying
261

One final thought before PB decides how the rest of the NPCs vote.

Working six months of every year for four pawns of vis, above and beyond all other needs being cared for, is not "slavery." Slavery would be working year round for exactly what you need.

If your expenses are $40k/yr, you're doing pretty well to make $40k/yr with six months' vacation, and full medical/dental year round.
Making $10k/mo, tax free and with full benefits, and only working every other month? You're living like a king.

Please, in the name of the Gaming Contract, give Ysebrand only 4 pawns a year for six months' work, with ample supply in silver, and the OPTION of making extra on commission for especially important projects.

Please, in the name of the Gaming Contract, do not pay someone's Companion more than our magi receive, and give one player a monopoly on the most valuable form of vis.

262

I already know how the npcs are going to vote, I'm just waiting for darkwing and qcipher to post before I unveil them.

But,to be honest, I'm not that comfortable controlling, basically, half the votes in the Council (even though we have the Superiors hook). Luckily, Siobhan is gone after Winter, so then I'll be back down to three, but I'm awful tempted to just say that her kin came during Summer and that's when she took off. dunno.

263

Honestly, and PB knows this, this is plan B for Ysebrand.
I'm interested in telling interesting stories. Stories involve conflict, I would really prefer to keep the conflict between PCs rather than bust it out into player accusations (seriously JL). I am fully cognizant that this player, if the deal should be ratified is going to have problems. I'm also fully cognizant that if it doesn't go through, he's going to have problems. But these threats of take the marbles and go home just have to stop, ok? Yes, Haile can hate the deal. Yes, Haile can think they are depriving her of magical power, but she should know that the case is weak, and it opens up a huge issue of precedent that no one would like (my suggestion about a book being purchased that benefits everyone else in the covenant, except one magus and he presses charges). It's the slippery slope argument. I don't care if you want Haile gunning for Ysebrand. I think that's interesting. I'd just prefer you set your sights on my characters than on me.

264

I am pretty sure you'd be pissed off at me if Halie sets her sights on Ysebrand.

Because the simple, easy answer?
Bam, he's at Magvillus. The end.

265

If you want to try that, I'm willing to let PB adjudicate the results of that action.

266

I think the key thing here is you like intercharacter antagonism and I do not.

One of my friends and I got handed competing characters in a one-shot. I got really stressed out about after an hour of our characters antagonizing each other, cried a little, needed a hug, and then switched characters with someone else.

This thing you're aiming for, that's fun and interesting for you? It is neither fun nor interesting to me, it stresses me out and I don't enjoy it. Your fun should not come at my expense, nor vice versa.

I do not want to be put into a situation where what makes sense for my character to do, and the only option I'm given, will potentially rob another player of a character he wants to play.

267

Well, honestly, it wasn't my expectation for this to be contentious. You surprised me a bit. Again, as I said, this was Plan B. I had to do something with him.
This character does have some conflict generating tendencies, I don't make any bones about it. He may or may not win this round, but there's always the next time. Chances are, he's not going to want to ever work for Haile, unless she talks very nicely to him and makes it up to him. In his mind, she was rude and abusive. Exactly what he was trying to avoid; she's confirmed his suspicions about most magi.
I was walking a fine line with Talia and Ysebrand, yes, but this is a consistent Tytalus tenet, as I said. There's nothing to say that the deal can't be renegotiated later, but the simple fact of the matter is he needs 4 pawns of corpus per year to live and be healthy. The extra, he can't use it if it's not corpus, so let's give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he does with it, if he's as skilled a merchant as his bargain suggests, he can probably trade vis for us at very good rates.

I'm not sure how I think it makes sense for you to bamf Ysebrand to Magvillus. He's outside of the code. It's possible that he explains the situation, and you get a stern talking to for exceeding your authority, and Ysebrand gets a couple of warping points. I don't know how it's going to turn out. I think it's interesting.

I can give you a virtual hug: hug. I'm always quite willing to explain my motivations and actions fully if you give me the opportunity before turning the volume up to 11, either IC or OOC. I'm willing to retcon the interpretations Ysebrand would have of Haile, and go bygones and all that, too.

Keep in mind, I was rather annoyed with Caoimhe's actions in Three Hour Tour, but I'm not harping on them and willing to give you enough rope to hang yourself. :wink: Talia would prefer to get to know the covenant before you attempt robbing them blind is all.

268

So what's Plan A?

269

I am surprised you thought it would go over smoothly. Reading through Ysebrand's negotiations it seemed like he was well aware he was scalping poor Eilid.

Maybe we have different definitions of poverty and wealth-- but if I knew a guy who was taking home $10k a month and only worked half the year, I'd want to punch him in the face just on principle.

(Most of the creepy old men that buy me drinks at the speakeasy all deserve punches in the face. "You're youngish and attractive, and my monthly alimony checks are bigger than your annual salary. Obviously you want to marry me despite my lack of ability to carry on a conversation, because where you see yourself in five years is changing my diapers." punch. in. face.)

270

Don't equate "this contentious" with "go over smoothly." They aren't even closely similar in meaning. I expected discussion, I expected negotiation. I did not expect: if you vote for this, I'm going to prosecute you. Well, that just set Talia off, that's a challenge. You just challenged a Tytalus![1] And she thinks she can beat you on your own turf! That's like a dream for Tytalus everywhere! How could Talia not jump to that? Heck, if i wasn't controlling Ysebrand and had been against it, the inner Tytalus in her might just have come out reversed course and decided to change her vote from against Ysebrand to for Ysebrand on simple principle of besting a Quaesitor in a legal fight.

You are equating IC motivations with OOC knowledge. Ysebrand doesn't know how much vis the covenant has. Heck, Eilid just gave him 3 pawns like it was nothing. For all he knows you guys are rich. If she was willing to just give the vis, without any conditions, you don't expect him to bargain to his advantage? Like I said, there are all kinds of IC motivations and ways for them to fall out, and I'm fine with playing those out. If you want to make nice with Ysebrand, you can. If you want him to hate you, you can leave him be and have him fester it. I am not in control of how your character reacts. I can give you indications as to why my character might not like that imperious Bjornaer Quaesitor.

[1] That Talia, she's a singing pirate and a heck of an advocate!

271

I'm trying to find a delicate way of stating it, but I can't. So, I'll tear off the bandaid. Your IC and OOC actions took Plan A off the table for Ysebrand. Ysebrand was designed to have two masters who would naturally compete for his different services.

I guess the unanswered question is, do you let them buy you drinks?

272

Who were the two masters supposed to be? It never seemed like that was an option. Folks all ignored the suggestion of having him work for Aodhan directly on commission.

I sit at the bar and drink until I'm ready to go home. Erik the Adorable Bartender tells me if I have a tab or not. About half the time, I don't. There may be complicity there, but if I tolerate a crasshole, I'd say a glass of 1985 Glenrothes is worth not punching him in the face.

273

https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/the-break-room/102/1

Like I said, Ysebrand acted entirely within his concept. Someone gave him vis. He thought hey, maybe I can work out a bargain here, something to my advantage. Now you don't have to like the bargain, you can think it's crap, but you can't deny that he used his gifts to their utmost. He is also within his rights to request being treated like a person, it is his life, after all. And you're free to insist, and he leaves. Now Talia, having surrounded herself with mundanes for nearly her entire PG life admires muggles who do the most they can with what they have. She has immense respect for the audacity of his offer, and endorses it out of that belief. Things can always be renegotiated later if it turns out it impacts finances, too much. Further, his rate is fixed for some period of time. Again, he has gifts Talia would like the covenant to capture and use for their own benefit. If he's happy, he's more likely to work for us. If he's not, he's likely to not work as well for us. It's about like giving a dog a treat. Yes, this treat is something we use, too. But what's he going to do with that other vis? That could be interesting, let's see if he makes some good trades. In the end, it will sort itself out. I want the journey to happen. The destination...not really the point.

274

Still doesn't address the inherent unfairness in having one player controlling a double share of the covenant's magical resources, and monopolizing the most valuable Form of vis.

I would really like not to have anyone's Companion more valued than everyone else's. It is inherently unfair and that makes things Not Fun.

If Ysebrand gets paid in vis for his work, so should all the other specialists. He has special need? Fine, see to his needs, out of everyone else's pockets if necessary, but any excess is not paid in vis.

The "slavery" argument was totally spurious, given he is only willing to work for half the year.

Talia went straight from insisting that Halie renegotiate with Ysebrand to calling a vote then and there. There were multiple countersuggestions made, and you ignored them all. That was not cool, my friend.

I would like to avoid all situations where one player's character acts to the full extent of their influence on behalf of another of their characters. It's why I hated lp's "I'm playing the muggle-mindbuggerer, and our local lord" and it's why I dislike Talia's advocacy of Ysebrand's swindling the covenant.

275

Haile had barred Ysebrand from the room. Talia's not going to negotiate on his behalf. He made his offer, he has a right to hear it voted up or down. It was obvious that Haile wasn't calling him back into the room, so why not vote the offer up or down, and move the conversation forward.

Talia can ignore whatever she wishes, she is a council member and doesn't even have to explain her vote. Darkwing didn't explain Trimalchio vote. Talia doesn't care. Aodhan said something she has no idea what it means and is waiting for him to come out of his daydream and explain it. Talia wants the issue voted on and moved forward. Her yes vote and advocacy for him shouldn't be misconstrued as a desire to bankrupt the covenant. Arguing about it, trying to get me, as Talia, to negotiate on Ysebrand's behalf wasn't going to happen. There's an offer on the table, brought in by Eilid, vote it up or down and move on. Haile wants to negotiate, she can do it with Ysebrand. I'm not preventing that. In fact, by putting the offer up for vote, she's getting past the discussion. It's obvious that neither of us will change the other's minds, and I'm honestly OK with that.

The slavery argument was never uttered IC, but your response to that was just as spurious: perhaps you should've thought about that. Well, Arya, I did. And honestly, despite whether I agreed with you privately or publicly, you drove ladyphoenix away and in that process you destroyed half of what I was using as a character concept.

He doesn't control a share of magical resources, he may receive a portion of vis, but keep in mind he can't really use it in the same way a magus can. As much as he got a good deal for the vis now, think how you can bend him over when he comes calling for a favor and can only pay in vis? Also, I wouldn't say the most valuable form is corpus. It's one of the most valuable, granted. But Creo, Rego are right up there in value and utility, Terram is mighty useful in a number of things, but Creo and Vim can both be used for LR. There's 25 pawns annually in Creo and vim sources, once any unknown sources are found and discovered.

I'm really trying to divorce myself from the Talia and Ysebrand argument. Your vociferous objection and rejection of him as a person really rubbed Talia raw. She about certamened you for it, but she's afraid you'll choose Ignem. Again, vote the issue up or down, Talia's fine either way. i'm fine either way. It's en event, it has to be handled, the effects will be determined in the fullness of time.

276

Do you guys want me to go ahead and start up the 1223 story threads (which would involve seven open threads until the three remaining 1222 threads wrap up), or wait until those are resolved to start the next year? (I'm sure darkwing must be bored off his tailfeathers right now)

277

I don't mind if you start them up now.

278

Couple of unanswered questions:
Are we waiting to do something about the common lab as a long term project. Should we vote on it in the first council thread? Do we want to assign tasks, such as someone needs to find and learn Ambulatory Laboratory?
Second Ysebrand, there are two more seasons he needs to be fed for 1222. He needs to try and hock some wares or do some labwork. Anyone use him so he can. I'm thinking of writing letters to contacts.
Who's going to hunt down vis sources? I think LP's character was planning to do that...

279

My understanding is that it was something to be examined, but anything to be done would be a long-term (several years) of planning.

If nobody else has a use for him, she has an idea for an Invested Item that she needs to run past Talia but I haven't gotten around to starting that yet.

That reminds me. I need Halie, Talia, and Trimalchio to make visual Awareness rolls (Quality die).

280

Quality die=non botching stress die?
A total of 5