I actually prefer an example to go along with it. With an example, it's very easy to figure out (Unless its VERY poorly worded). I guess a good another demonstration of this would be the 'Minor magical focus' write up....(sorry guys, but the write up could use a bit clearer wording... )
I took the wording the same way as B. You open the item (attuning the object to yourself) and then start putting powers into it (and attuning the various parts at the SAME time). The whole rule writeup SCREAMED "Easier than enchanting any other object". The way that has been explained here actually ADDS a step.
That doesn't really make it easier. The whole opening process now is twice as long....nice.
My SG, who has been running since 2nd ed, took it the same way...
Sorry if I seem too critical, but IMO, the rule is too much
A wand of coiled oak and hazel with a quartz rock crystal, a jade, an agate, and a ruby embedded between the coils, shod with lead.
+3 bolts
+4 control things at a distance
+4 destroy things at a distance
+4 Aquam
+3 air
+7 protection with venom
+4 wards
+3 affect blood
+4 leadership in war
+6 fire
+3 affect living wood
+4 affect dead wood
+7 protection from storms
+3 divination
+3 healing
+5 clairvoyance
One more component... hmm, one might go for adding red coral (+10 vs. demons) or emerald (+4 incite love or passions), or topaz (+4 leadership, +4 strength, courage, and pride) or violet ametyst (+4 ascendancy over masses).
I'm just going to bump this as I had also read that section as Urien did though I thought it was too easy. Forming something that powerful that easily didn't sit right...
This is a valuable thread. Perhaps this should be added to the FAQ...
Remember that you can only have as many components as your Magic Theory, and that you need one season working on your talisman for each individual bonus you want to enable. It isn't as if you get them all from the get-go.
That's at least one season (ignoring the possibility of the greater talisman mystery virtue) per attunement. You get one attunement for each effect tha tyou instill into the talisman with a maximum of one attunement per season, so an effect that takes three seasons to enchant still only grants you a single attunement.
Aye. What brought this up for me was our CrAu specialist with MT 5 wanting to make a talisman thus: a small lighting-struck oak fan decorated with amber, opal and ruby, chased in bronze and with a pin-feather worked into the handle.
The 1 attunement/season was easy to figure out but what we missed was that the talisman had to be opened to enchantment before attuning it. That makes a lot of sense and makes me much happier.
How about an engraving of a shape? Could you use that for its shape modifiers?
Instinct (and at least the base rules) say not as such, but nothing a minor/major breakthrough couldn't handle. Especially if the magus in question already know how to enchant tattoos.
I'm probably raking up old stories here, but that quote from the book that comes back all the time: "You can only use an item as a talisman if you enchanted it yourself." In my opinion you rip it out of context completely.
It is stated that a magus can also use an already instilled item for a talisman. In that case he has to have instilled it himself.
It sounds to me like I can take a brand new item (that no Verditius has laid his hands on yet) and enchant/attune it as my talisman, whatever the material and size. (I would even say I can attune myself to that pyramid, yes, but it would likely get myself some divine wrath or so)
I know I am trying to open a jade necklace (which is a semi-precious stone, so 15 if I remember correctly). According to some I cannot use that for a talisman untill I have an MT of 8?!? (that's 180 xp in MT, a bit much considering that talisman attunement gives casting, not lab, bonusses...) I don't think using the talisman rules like this is too overpowered, except when you make a multi-multi-multi-composite item just to score as many different bonusses as you can. The end-total is you TeFo anyway.
As I just said, I agree with Yinkin that such a staff would be powergaming of the better order, but then again, powerplaying is very easy in the ArM system. My group will just look out for such things with each other (and mock magi that have 10-component talismen). Besides, it would take a season for each of those attunements, so you are planning on completely jamming your talisman? (instead of inventing some spells or simply reading books)
Well... talismans usually contain lots of different material and shape bonuses.. so.. why not just open something other than the jade?
Because people are indeed right, you need an MT of 8 to open up 15 vim spaces in an object... that's pretty much a given..
Basically.. there's no need for such a houserule.. when you can just open up a bit of glass attached to the necklace or something, for only 1 vim or such
Also.. I don't consider it powergaming at all... that's what talismans are -meant- to be.. there's a -reason- people go questing to find dead magi's talismans and such... they're usually quite strong, and very powerful.
This discussion is of interest to me...I am currently planning my new talisman.
My first talisman had ten components. I have attuned eight of them (didn't take the time for more). I supose the new talisman WILL have more attunements...It will have more powers instilled, so attuning is 'easier'. Remember, because you can attune any season that you work on it, if you have five components, and five powers, it would not take you any additional time to attune it to the various effects.
As for more than Ten componants being excessive, or another magi's Talisman not being useful, consider my project...My thoughts so far are as follows:
I plan on a Talisman being the form of a Vambrace. It will have roughly 15 or 16 components. It will be opened with about 105 pawns of Vim. I figure this will allow enough powers that I will not have to devote extra time to attunements. If I can complete my research and my several quests (read: LOTS of work) it will be instilled with both Elder Runes and Rune Magic. The actual enchantments will be determined by the status of my apprentices...gauntlet or not? If I can locate and joint a cult with "Great Talisman" that would also be excellent, but unlikely.
Consider though that this is a Verdi with close to fifty years past Gauntlet.
So I don't consider a Talisman with ten components or forty pawns to be that excessive...
I would certainly think that this item and all it attunements would be of great interest to many Magi..
Agnar is correct...though Familiar, Apprentices and aura only play a part in instilling effects...
MT about 15 x Philosophaie about 7 yield a maximum of 105 pawns of Vis that can be instilled into an item in one season.
!5 components? Sure...one for each point of MT...
Lets see..off the top of my head..
Gold, Brass, Silver, Copper, Iron and perhaps Tin. ?
Add in Saphire, Diamond, Ruby, Topaz, Quartz..Several types of Wood (carved as gems)...that not really the plan yet, but its off the top of my head...
As for working it all out to exactly 105..well thats the tough part...
Of course the point of bringing this up is that it sheds light on what's possible...
Yes, I know elder verditius runes allows that.. however the rules for talismans make the shape and material independent to the amount of Vis you can put it in, the maximum of which is equal to your highest form + highest technique..
In many cases, this means Verditius are far better off making a normal item, rather than a talisman, but then, talisman have casting bonii and such as well, as well as other handy little effects.
the 15 MT is probably a combination of puissant MT and MT affinity, which would only need 300xp .. or only 260 if he has a relevant MT speciality.
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