Talisman for a Verditius Magus - questions

[Taskerian]

Hey,
i have some questions me and my group are not quite sure about, so i hope you have an idea or two.

• If a Verditius mage decorates his talisman with verditius runes, will he be able to use that bonus as attunement?

• The outer mystery Verditius magic reduces the amount of vis needed to open an item for enchantment by the crafting score. Does that apply to the opening of the talisman as well? For example, my talisman could hold 20 pawns of vis and my score is 8. Could i spent 1 season and 2 vis to open the item for 10 vis? And another season with the same amount?

• a non-Verditius-specific one: The boni i get from shape/material when enchanting an object are limited by my MT score. Is the bonus i get when i attuned a talisman limited as well? For example: My talisman contains red coral (+10 vs demons). My MT score is 5. When attuned, does my talisman give me a bonus of 5 or 10?

I know that all of those questions can be decided bei troupe and GM, but i just wanted to get some more thoughts on the subject.
Thanks

[Berengar]

@Taskerian

• If a Verditius mage decorates his talisman with verditius runes, will he be able to use that bonus as attunement?

By ArM5 p.98 "based on the shape and material of the talisman": no, he can't.

@Taskerian

• The outer mystery Verditius magic reduces the amount of vis needed to open an item for enchantment by the crafting score. Does that apply to the opening of the talisman as well? For example, my talisman could hold 20 pawns of vis and my score is 8. Could i spent 1 season and 2 vis to open the item for 10 vis? And another season with the same amount?

The talisman is still an enchanted item. And by ArM5 p.93 "the number of pawns of vis needed to open the enchantment is reduced by the magus's Craft score, ...". So the answer is no: the reduction the Craft score brings you is for the item, not for the season in the lab.

@Taskerian

• a non-Verditius-specific one: The boni i get from shape/material when enchanting an object are limited by my MT score. Is the bonus i get when i attuned a talisman limited as well? For example: My talisman contains red coral (+10 vs demons). My MT score is 5. When attuned, does my talisman give me a bonus of 5 or 10?

ArM5 p.98 does not mention any limit by MT score on the magic attunement bonus, or the number of attunements possible in the talisman: your attunement bonus from red coral is +10.

I hope this helps. Do the members of your troupe have sufficient access to the ArM5 core book when discussing these topics? Figuring such things out from memory can be a problem.

Cheers

[Ezechiel3571]

For example, my talisman could hold 20 pawns of vis

If it is your talisman, the limit is your highest technique + your highest form. So it might be 20 at a given time, will increase and you can keep "opening" it. Contrary to regular invested items which can only be opened once - either with the value of all the components or with only the value of the highest component (p97).

[ironboundtome]

[quote]
Taskerian wrote:

• a non-Verditius-specific one: The boni i get from shape/material when enchanting an object are limited by my MT score. Is the bonus i get when i attuned a talisman limited as well? For example: My talisman contains red coral (+10 vs demons). My MT score is 5. When attuned, does my talisman give me a bonus of 5 or 10?
  ArM5 p.98 does not mention any limit by MT score on the magic attunement bonus, or the number of attunements possible in the talisman: your attunement bonus from red coral is +10.[\quote]
  I thought the max number of attunements was equal to the MT score. Not the value of any one, but the maximum number you could have.

[Berengar]

@ironboundtome

I thought the max number of attunements was equal to the MT score. Not the value of any one, but the maximum number you could have.

Take a look at

@ArM5 p.98

There is no limit to the number of attunements a talisman can have at one time, ...

You might have mixed this up with

@ArM5 p.97

A compound item of this sort may not contain more components than your Magic Theory score, as binding disparate things together magically takes some skill.

But every component of an item can provide several possible attunement bonuses.

Cheers

[Taskerian]

Right, the number of attunements isnt limited.

The talisman is still an enchanted item. And by ArM5 p.93 "the number of pawns of vis needed to open the enchantment is reduced by the magus's Craft score, ...". So the answer is no: the reduction the Craft score brings you is for the item, not for the season in the lab.

That also answers if the rule does affect talismans at all, thanks.

ArM5 p.98 does not mention any limit by MT score on the magic attunement bonus, or the number of attunements possible in the talisman: your attunement bonus from red coral is +10.

Okay, i was wondering, because the p. 97 states the limit for enchanted devices and i wanst sure if that applies to the talisman still.

Thanks for all the answers

[terminus_est]

For the second question, p. 93 states indeed that "If the magus creates the enchanted item in this way, the number of pawns needed to open the enchantment is reduced by the magus's craft score to a minimum of one pawn." So you could wonder if the cost is reduced for every effect you enchant, or for the opening of the item for enchantment...

The answer is in the errata : "The magus, or any other magus, may invest effects as if he had paid the full, normal cost to pen it." So the reduced cost applies (only) to opening the item (invested item or talisman) for enchantment.

[callen]

I think there is still a question, though. Let's say the Verditius has Craft 8 and invests 12 pawns of Vim vis to open the item (opened to 20). The Verditius has a highest Te+Fo of 30. Could the Verditius use 18 more pawns to further open it, or only 10 more pawns?

The Talisman rule limits the number of pawns actually used, making it seem like 18. But the Verditius Runes make it seem like the reduction takes this into account, so it's 10. However, Item Attunement works like a Talisman, and that allows Craft to increase the limit. But Attunement also adds Philosophiae to the limit, and Talismans don't, so while they're similar, they're also different.

[lvgreen]

@One Shot

You might have mixed this up with

@ArM5 p.97

A compound item of this sort may not contain more components than your Magic Theory score, as binding disparate things together magically takes some skill.

But every component of an item can provide several possible attunement bonuses.

Do the Verditus Runes count as a component in a compound item?
Does each Verditus Rune count as another component in a compound item?

[callen]

@lvgreen

Do the Verditus Runes count as a component in a compound item?
Does each Verditus Rune count as another component in a compound item?

No, Verditius Runes are about attuning the item to magic while creating it, not a component of an item:

"Verditius magi may also forge items from raw materials as part of the process of enchantment... Most Verditius magi creating such items do so in a way that means that the item is attuned to the powers which will be instilled in it... Other magi refer to these details as Verditius Runes"

Meanwhile, the components are the different pieces that make up the size and composition of the item, providing shape and material bonuses:

"you must acquire the item you will enchant, and note its size and composition... It is also possible to prepare a compound item for enchantment, so that you get the shape and material bonuses from all the components for all effects."

I'm pretty sure it's a little loose on the definition so as to be more fun. You don't want to treat a chain hauberk as hundreds of different loops of iron, each of which is a separate component. That would make so many enchantments impossible. Just call it one chain hauberk made of iron: one component. But maybe there is a symbol woven through the loops on the chest, made of unicorn hair woven to make the shape of a cross. Now you have a second component.