Talisman MR & OtIT

Good :slight_smile: Now that we are all on the same page, who gets what warping if any?

W

If you believe that the affect effects the mage her/himself, then the mage does as per "constant effect" (1 or 5/year, depending on the spell itself).

If you believe that the affect falls outside the mage, then nothing.

(But all I'm doing is reading the rules to you, even after I pointed them out above - what was/is your confusion on this point? i.e., why do you have to ask?)

Funny :slight_smile:

I'm interested in hearing about what you believe. Does the tunnel affect the mage in a fashion that should warp or does it not. Actually more looking for where raw draws the line on that one but your beliefs also counts in the grand scheme of things.

W

Oh - maybe that was clear at one time, but somehow I understood your question to be one of confusion re the rules on Warping, not on that one spell.

RAW, all it says is that a person is Warped if they are "affected directly and personally" by the spell.

Generally speaking, one approach to the questions on "to Warp or not to Warp?" can be answered by looking at the Target (capital T) of the spell - that is, what Form is being affected, and is the mage a party to that? And in context of this discussion, the "effect", I believe, refers only to the effect of magic upon a Form*, not subsequent damage caused by that magically conjured Form upon a person.* (And, yes, this approach means that the vast majority of spells that cause Warping are Mentem or Corpus - altho' see exceptions, below.)

(* The Enigma's Gift (p 157) being one clear exception to this general rule that jumps to mind.As a spell specifically designed to Warp, it breaks the general rule.)

So by that interpretation, a huge fireball cast at someone does not cause Warping - the Target is the Fire, not the victim. However, some Troupes rule the opposite, that spells like these also causes Warping - if a spell leaves "a magical residue", then shouldn't it be causing Warping as well? Many (myself included) feel that's just too much, and the counter-argument would be found in the summoning of magical animals to attack someone, or a magically summoned rock dropped on someone, or a large spiked hedge (Wall of Thorns) summoned immediately surrounding someone - they do injury but don't warp, so why should magically summoned fire? But, bottom line, the language of the RAW could be interpreted either way - "effected directly and personally" - so ysmv.

The exceptions (or necessary clarifications) to my preferred interpretation (the former) are:

  • Wards that protect the person from a Form do cause Warping.
  • Anything involving Intellego spells that affect the senses does cause Warping of the person whose senses are altered.
  • Magic items that are worn and produce a constant effect (such as light, heat) do cause Warping only if the target (small "t") is the wearer, such as a "keep me warm" item that creates warmth only in the body of the wearer. Items in the general environment, such as the same effect on a room or entire castle, do not (see Covenants re Items in the Lab). (This is possibly the one most open to diff interpretations - ysmv on this point.)
  • Optionally, any long-term effect that is centered on the person in question could also Warp, such as Invisibility (which technically targets the species/image, not the person) etc. It's sometimes a judgement call rather than an obvious black-or-white alternative.

So - imo - the Target of CtIT is any spells that the mage might cast, not the mage themself, nor any person targeted (small "t") via an AC - so - no warping.

To me, it's just a mystical AC version of a MuTe effect "Conjure the Literal Tunnel", which opens a tunnel in a stone wall and allows R:Sight and R:Voice spells.

Otoh, if you believe that a Fireball should cause Warping on its target (small "t", i.e. "victim"), then the connection of the AC should receive Warping as well, since the spell must overcome their MR to be cast successfully. That would be in keeping with this different interpretation.

(Assuming the above is the D: Constant Intangible Tunnel effect)

Yes, this affects the magus. Yes, he will take Warping.
Yes, the effect will presumably be designed for the magus, so it will be a single Warping point per yewar for constant effect.
No, it will not transmit the MR of Parma Magica while the magus isn't physically touching the object.

Did I forget anything?

Possibly you forgot to explain "why" you think he takes Warping, what passage(s) in the RAW suggest(s) that interpretation over any other.

Possibly you simply ignored that detail.

Yes, I did choose to ignore that, thank you for noticing. :slight_smile:

But since you're asking:

Not "target of" (and especially not "Target of"), not "affected by" but "under the influence of".

I would further argue that, seeing as how Parma doesn't translate through an Intangible Tunnel (as discussed earlier in this thread, eg here and here, combined with the fact that your Talisman is always an AC to you, I see no reason why you would want a permanent Intangible Tunnel to your talisman. There are situations where you would want a Tunnel, to affect your Talisman, but in my experience, these are few and rare. Why open yourself to a huge security hole like that?

Actually, yes, it is "affected by" - it's right there in the rules, in so many words. That's why I included those exact words in quotation marks.

In fact, the word "affected" is there twice - once on page 167 (col ii, #2), and again (my quotation) on page 168 (col ii, 1st sentence in 1st full paragraph).

I'd comment further, but I feel I only need to point out that the only place that phrase is used, is when it is defined by use of the word "affected", and the exact phrase that I quoted above and that you seem to be trying to dismiss...

A character is only under the influence of a spell if they are affected directly and personally. :laughing:

OK, now you have me confused.
I was purely refering to that one line on p. 167. The statement [ quote="Tellus"] not "affected by" [ /quote] was purely refering to the sentence on p. 167, 3rd condition, indicating the language used there, and nothing else. You are absolutely correct that p. 168 col 2 clarifies what exactly is meant by "under the influence of".

I wasn't aware that I was trying to dismiss the sentence that you seem to focus on as central

but I really have trouble seeing how someone to whom an Intangible Tunnel is opened can not qualify for this condition.

As a note aside, I don't see how the language used in condition 2 on p. 167 is relevant for something that I thought was a discussion of codition 3, since these each grant warping seperately.
Have I missed something vital there?

Great insight on the problematic from everyone. Thank-you!

Guess it all hinges on the interpretation one has of "A character is only under the influence of a spell if they are affected directly and personally."

Tough one...

Thank-you all once again. Good discussion!

W

Exactly.

In the end, the only really important thing is that 1) it makes sense to you and your Troupe, 2) allows the game to be "fun" (however you define that!), and 3) your chosen interpretation is consistent across the game and with other interpretations and rules.

GG!

I'm leaning a bit towards "yes, it causes long-term warping", mainly from thinking about it in-game: It's a magic ball that follows you around. If I used a CrVi "create magical ball of energy", and then used ReVi to have it "float around at touch range" on another magi, I would reasonably expect that magi to take a point of warping...from the Rego effect that links them to the magic ball, if nothing else. (Similar to a Rego Vim "personal protection vs. Demons.")

I agree. The relevant guideline (ArM5, page 161) says that "A conduit puts you in mystical contact with the target...", this plainly affects the things at either terminus of the conduit. So, if an Intangible Tunnel-like spell had a long enough duration, sure it would cause constant-effect based warping.

This from the greatest current expert on the Intangible Tunnel, who wrote that chapter.