I thought I had this figured out and then was re-reading it and now I have doubts.
This was the assumed process I had:
Open enchantment as a prepared object. Requires Vim Vis equal to the siz and material calculated as normal, season 1.
Attune as a Talisman. Spend a season and set the opened item as your Talisman and gain the benefits, including being able to stuff more enchantments into it than the pawns used to open it.
After reading it, a line threw me a bit.
(pg 98 bottom paragraph first column) "The capacity of a talisman is independent of its shape and material, and instead depends on the power of the magus to whom it is attuned. The maximum number of pawns of Vim vis that may be used to prepare a talisman is equal to the sum of the magus's highest Technique and highest Form. Unlike other items, the capacity of a Talisman may be opened a bit at a time. A magus could open one pawn's worth every season if he wished, although that is inefficient."
So now, does that mean:
Preparing an item for enchantment now requires (up to) the highest Technique and Form, meaning an item started in season 1 (a wooden wand for example, normally 4 pawns of Vim vis) would or could instead be opened with the full Technique and Form score which is likely to be considerably higher, and the creator could do it gradually as there is nothing in this to indicate that it supercedes the Magic Theory x2 limit of Vis usable in a season. Because of this option it can take much longer to get to the step where you actually attune it to you as a talisman, but you can make a very high end talisman regardless of the shape and materials.
It's not a talisman until it's attuned. So your original understanding was correct. Once it has been attuned the the limit changes, and you can then open it further.
The odd situation really arises when you attune something that has been opened beyond your TeFo combination. This happens most easily for Verditius but could happen to anyone, especially for generalists. Let's say you have lots of Techniques and Forms up to 5, and one of each at 6 (your top Technique and Form). Let's also say you have Magic Theory 5 and Puissant Magic Theory. You could open an item with 14 pawns of vis. Then you attune it. Now the limit is 12 pawns. Perhaps you simply can't attune it until your top Technique and Form are higher? I don't know the answer to this one. Happily, the circumstances under which it would apply seem fairly rare.
The main reason I was looking at it was to make a talisman of a great sword. A wooden staff requires 8 while a metal great sword would require 20. The staff would require a minimum Magic Theory of 4 (assuming it's not a Verditius that's doing it) and a minimum Magic Theory of 10 for the great sword. With the wizard I have in mind, her best Tech and Form is 25, easily enough to attune the sword.
Would then the wizard be able to attune it gradually? Or does it go back to using Vim vis with the Magic Theory limit and have 1 season?
No, when you open your great sword, you do it as an enchanted item, so you must be able to do it in one season, you can't do it progressively. Which can be a problem, since for most magi that means MT 10. It's only after you have opened it, and then attuned it as a talisman, that you can further open it as slowly as you wish.
You can, however, open only part of your sword, if it has parts. Say, a gem set in the pommel, or the hilt, or the guard if it is not part of the blade (AM5, p.97, third paragraph). You'll still get to use the Shape bonus of the sword, but not the material one. And if it gets broken off you could lose some of the enchantments in it permanently (if you used that shape bonus in your Lab Total when instilling them). But it lets you open the sword cheaply (hey, just use a bit of colored cut glass as decoration, and open that !). And once you have opened it as an enchanted item, then attuned it, you can finish opening it at your own pace.
Hmm, tricky. The example in the book with the gem and the staff uses the shape & material of the gem but only the shape of the staff, but not the material. I'd be tempted to allow the staff to extend the touch range, since it is connected to the enchanted gem and you do get shape bonus for it. Same goes for the sword and the hilt.
So what really happens is that you open a normal item for enchantment as you normally do in the first season. Second season you attune it as a talisman. Assuming your best TeFo combo is higher than your MTx2 you can then in a third season put more vis into the talisman, to enhance the total capacity for enchantments. You can increase with MTx2 up to a total maximum of TeFo.
Exempli Gratia:
Vries ex Tremere (my current magus) has Magic Theory 10, Rego 13 and Mentem 14 - as his best arts. He wants a crown of noble metals with various semi-precious stones and other bits as a talisman. This compound device could hold a lot of vis, but he is still limited by MTx2
Season 1: Opening for enchantment, he can open with a maximum of 20 pawns, but this must still be either the sum of all components Size x Material or the highest. A crown is propably Small and made of Gold this is 20 pawns. This is enough. It doesn't matter that the sum of all components is more than 20, because one he has attuned it as a talisman, he can just put more vis into it. Later. Or it could be viewed as being made of several different metals, so let's call it 3 Tiny instanced of Brass, Silver and Gold respectively, that's 1x5+1x6+1x10=21. And that's not looking at any stones set into it.
Season 2: Attune as Talisman. The item is now a talisman, and does not need to obey the limits of capacity anymore.
Season 3: If he feels that 20 pawns isn't enough, he can just spend another season to put more vis into it. The item is now limited by his best TeFo of 27, so he can put 7 pawns more into it, which is less than the 20 pawns he can work with per season.
But another interpretation is possible, although dodgy:
What if "Opening a Talisman" is different than "Opening an Invested Device"? I mean, if the magus decides froim the get-go that he isn't merely opening for enchantment, but spending the first season (of a minimum of 2) to create a Talisman. So the item is in essence a talisman from thr start, only it doesn't work before it is attuned. It is a Talisan-to-be.
Then his limit for the capacity of the device is his best TeFo combo already at this time, not the Size x Material. Since he would otherwise be breaking the limitations of Invested Devices, he'd need to attune the device as a talisman before doing anything else. In this case, the magus with low to moderate Magic Theory but high Arts can open with a large amount in the first season, rather tha just a small amount, and perhaps skipå the third season where he opens with more. or those opening simple or small items for talismans.
My totals were very high, but with certain Verdi abilities, I can make items that so far surpass 'highest tech and form', that 'Item Attunement', become only useful when trying to fit a lot of magic into something very simple....say a plain gold ring. In all other cases, I just make a very complicated item that meets my needs, and if its too 'big',
We just ruled that when making items like this, and then using them for a Talisman, the item can be used, but you can't add anymore spaces to it...(since tech+form is lower)
Ah, right. Halancar was only using the shape bonus, nothing else.
That is a good question about your Range Touch. I would tend to allow the extension since it magically has the shape of a sword. Also, this method is not generally advisable for Talismans because of the limitation of the bonuses. Usually it's better to do the composite thing, opening the most expensive part, so you have more bonuses available to attune to.
That's the problem, this interpretation is exactly what I'm talking about.
I think it's best to open it the normal way, attune it, then later on open it still more. The compound items I was clear on though. Thanks for all the input.
That was the Flambeau warrior Magus correct? I thought that was brilliant. The staff/haft of his polearm was enchanted as a talisman, but the axe blade itself was not, so there'd never be an issue of penetration. I also liked how he'd give the enemy a whack with the weapon, and if they lived he'd use the blood from the axe as an Arcane Connection.
I can't see a way for this to matter in terms of penetration. It's magical effects that need to penetrate, not magic items. If I have an enchanted pillow that has no active magic on it I can bonk someone over the head with it without referencing the penetration of anything.
True, but I believe this was done specifically to sidestep ever having to worry about it. Unless the creature or target had some way (other than defense and soak) to stop it, Penetration would never be an issue with the weapon; the axe was mundane and had no effects on it at all. It sidesteps any question period of things like the pink dot effect. Granted, an enchanted weapon with no active magics should do the same thing, but this is a wizard that is more of a warrior and less a magic theorist, perhaps he assumed it could potentially be resisted if it had any enchantments on it.
