Not only is that not explicit about PoF, it's not even implicit. You also have to take into account the target:
- Spells cast through the tunnel must target the original target of the tunnel (or the original caster, if cast in the other direction).
So we remain in questionable territory. Would you let me CrAn a horse underneath a person to whom I have an Intangible Tunnel?
I was referring to another line in core that says that Creo spells that create stuff must be either T:Ind or T:Group. You can't create a T:Part.
Though at least the intent, for the purposes of this discussion, is clear: you are still only affecting the Target of the Tunnel.
Hmm. I think I see your point, but I am not convinced.
This actually opens up a whole new issue: what happens to a suppressed spell? I had always assumed it was there, but "dormant", so that you could perceive it and dispel it, for example (so this is a question of some importance).
Otherwise, on what is the suppression acting? I've always read "the spell must be active to be suppressed" to mean exactly this: as soon as the spell is no longer "there", the "suppression spell" ceases to exist.
Now, if the ReVi magics of the tunnel are "there but dormant", they are present on the Target of the Tunnel (they are just incapable of channelling magical energy to him) so they can be dispelled there.
I see "suppressed" effects as being blocked, dammed, encapsulated, wrapped or frozen by the suppression spell.
So the original effect is still there and can be detected, and targeted once detected. That is because the "suppression" is a ReVi effect. It does not destroy or nullify the suppressed effect. It just temporarily blocks it from affecting its own target.
Sure.
That wouldn't break the concept for me.
Really handy for supporting grogs you send out on a job. They might need horses to chase someone down.
Oh, ya, you're totally right about that Part.
I'd assumed mostly the opposite, or else it's not really inactive. I've looked at it more like being held in a zero-volume bubble with a location (and maybe an area), waiting to be released. I see dispelling as being different, as something like Wind of Mundane Silence should take down things both inactive and active.
Edit: Sorry, trying to describe a 4-3D v. 3-2D idea and doing it poorly. Maybe saying something different? The ReVi suppression spell should be totally detectable. The suppressed spell should not be as detectable. This seems like detecting traces rather than detecting active magic to me. And through the traces you could figure out what has been suppressed, even though since it's inactive it cannot be expressing itself in any way.
But now it snowballs: If I can CrAn the horse under them, why not immediately beside them? If immediately beside them, why not beside them and within their reach? Etc.
I still donāt see a problem. If I can cast directly affecting Touch range spells through the Tunnel at the target magus - like ReMe or PeCo - why not element-conjuring damage spells like a Touch version of PoF?
Then why not a horse, a turnip or a cackling laugh just beside/below/above the magus? Makes no difference to me. Just not any further from the target of the Tunnel, because R: Touch.
Just as if I was casting directly at a target I could Touch, and not through a Tunnel.
But if you want to create the horse so precisely underneath the target, that he sits neatly in the saddle ready to ride, Iād want a Finesse roll. A and a really hard one, unless youāre also scrying.
So let's take that next step. Let's say the person the tunnel connects to is holding hands with someone else. If I can CrAn a horse within Touch range beside them, can I CrIg a fire within Touch range beside them to burn that someone else?
Nope
Because I see a distinction between creating a thing right next to the target of the Tunnel, which only affects said target (if at all) - and they wanting to affect another distinct target than the one you have a Tunnel to.
Even by accident or by wanting this deliberately Iād not even allow the created horse displace or crush the person the target magus is holding hands with. Because magic isnāt so precise that the horse appeared with immaculate precision. Itās there, besides the magus, and his hand-holding friend. This horse couldnāt even hurt the target magus, right at that instance (unless specifically designed to). Moments later the horse might freak out for any number of reasons by itself.
Iām not saying there is any good or consistent solution to this. But I accept deciding on the fly about conjured horses and hands-holding magi - should it ever happen - rather that disallowing a lot of magic through a Tunnel as a generic rule.
So if I CrAn a wolf instead of a horse beside the person, that wolf would be incapable of biting that hand--holding friend?
Edit: More going further: Can I cast CrIg Big BoAF on the person and burn everyone within several paces? Going back to someone else's: can I cast The Crystal Dart to hit the person, which would Muto some thing on their side of the tunnel to hit them since such a physical dart cannot pass through the tunnel?
Is there a good reason not to leave this up to individual troupes? Granted, if ArM5 had started with a crystal clear distinction between Targets, targets, and collateral damage twenty years ago, the answer would be clear, but it didn't. We can't go back and change that now, because that would break the Limit of Time, and it couldn't have been fixed at the time, because it took years of playing with the game to establish that this was a point that it would be helpful to clarify.
At this point, my feeling is that The Intangible Tunnel is too rare to be worth the space it would take to clarify, and the general point is too large a clarification for errata, and too boring a clarification to justify a sixth edition. Which, translated, means that I think there are good reasons to leave this up to individual troupes.
I wasn't trying to clarify Opening the Intangible Tunnel. I was asking questions to see if uses of AC's were consistent between what they can affect one way and what they can affect another way. I had wondered if it might provide insight on where AC's could be used elsewhere.
But as far as I can tell were can't find anything in the books to lock it down one way another with Opening the Intangible Tunnel, either. Only more things that look like they need troupe discretion. So I don't think this line of inquiry, though initially promising, will actually reveal anything about using AC's for penetration. Had there actually been an explicit comment about Pilum of Fire, it might have turned out to be revealing.
Possibly. We use it quite a lot.
I do. The entity to which you have the AC is now no longer the target.
That might be one fix. And I'd probably make that roll required to make the whole 'squeeze horse through a tunnel'-thing work.
True
So if it's ok to create a spray of acid or PoF to damage the target, it is because this element is in immediate contact with the target of the Tunnel.
So the created horse should also be in contact with the target.
The fire and acid should matter little as to precisely where they appear relative to the target. The horse not so much, the grog-supporting magus might not want the horse to appear on top of the grogs. But used offensively, on enemies he has a Tunnel to, he might. Hence the Finesse roll.
But if you conjure up a large amount of fire, covering a large area - can this then affect anyone standing close to the target of the Tunnel?
As for 'squeezing a horse through a tunnel' I assume you're only sending the magic though, and the horse appears at the end?
I mean, if I cast the spell at R:Sight, I don't get the horse in my hand and it then travels instantaneously through the intervening space to the designated target spot? And I could also skip the tunnel and cast the spell at R:Arc. If the "Intangible Assassin" chapter had never been written, would anyone ever have believed this to be a problem?
Yes, but we've never had any issues IIRC. We usually just use it to "cheat" with range and get lower levels.
Very true.
It seems to me that a pretty simple clarification of the intangible tunnel is that the targe must be individual and that individual must be the same individual as the tunnel is connected to.
Yes, in the sense that you cast Lungs of the Fish on an individual, and that a room is an individual.
Though the books say you can do Group through such a tunnel, as the Range to the Group is the Range to any one member.
It does. I hate that ruling and it breaks my mind to think about it, but it does.
In either case though the Target (spell target) has to be whomever (or whatever) you have made the intangible tunnel to- if you used an AC to a room you can use room Target, and the group (or part) to an individual, but you can't target a room from the individual, or a fireball you create to send through the tunnel.
Actually, you can target a room from the individual.
It is possible to cast
spells through the tunnel that affect
the Room, Structure, or Boundary that
the target is in, as touching a thing
in a Room, Structure, or Boundary is
sufficient to affect the entire Room,
Structure, or Boundary.
Hermetic Projects p79