Teaching new magical abilities

[Kazin_ex_Bonisagus]

Salve Sodales!

In the interest of making breakthroughs and incorporating new abilities into Hermetic magic, I understand the process of it up until its very final step.

Assuming that the major breakthrough is a success, and the magus has created a new Hermetic Virture, it states very clearly in HoH:TL that these new virtues are teachable to other magi without the crippling restrictions of "Learning supernatural abilities" (subtracting arts from the source quality of the text:

@HoH:TL

Learning a breakthrough is similar to learning a new supernatural ability, with two important distinctions. Major breakthroughs still work within the Hermetic system of magic, and are often Hermetic Virtues, so that learning one is not as difficult as learning a supernatural ability. You do not have to subtract your total Hermetic arts score from the Source Quality of the teaching source.

Alright. This is pretty clear cut. I understand this.

What kinda throws me is the second part...

@HoH:TL

A second exception is that, although Major Breakthroughs will most likely teach a Hermetic Virtue that does not have an associated Ability in game terms, [u][i]they may still be taught in this manner.[/i][/u]

Here's where I'm unsure.

[i]Exempli Gratia: A magus makes a breakthrough, discovering the Folk Witch method of Flight, and makes it a Hermetic virtue with a corresponding Ability "Flight." Eager to start up a Quidditch match (sorry), he creates the summa "Bedknobs and Broomsticks 101: A guide to flight -- Level 3, quality 10 Flight ability summa."

Viola! Any other magus may read and learn this new ability.

Another magus plunders the secrets of the Gruagachan, and makes a breakthrough, making "Cailleach Magic" a new Hermetic Virtue. However, this virtue does not have a corresponding ability.[/i]

How does one "teach" it without knowing how many experience points it takes to "learn" it without resorting to initiation if it can be taught in the same manner?

Is his breakthrough text "Formulaic magic: Fast, Furious, and Fun!" a tractatus that automatically bestows said ability upon a season of reading, or is it something else?

How about having to gain a number of experience points equal to the breakthrough points to gain the virtue?

Exempli Gratia: "Formulaic Magic: Fast, Furious, and Fun! is a Summa of quality 12 that may be read over the course of 4 seasons, generating the 45 experience points needed to gain the virtue "Cailleach Magic?"

I'm lost. Mysteries seems to imply that all virtues MUST be initiated, while True Lineages implies that breakthroughs can be taught like any other ability.

Answers, anyone?

[Fruny]

@Kazin ex Bonisagus

Answers, anyone?

IIRC, the answer is at the beginning of Ancient Magic.

[Jachra]

The short version is this: A second breakthrough makes whatever it is a teachable virtue, it makes it a Favored Ability for Hermetic Magi in the parlance.
For virtues, a second breakthrough makes it part of Hermetic magic.

When you teach someone magic theory, having done this, they gain the Virtue.
I presume this is how House virtues work.

...I quietly raise my Serf's Parma, just in case.

[Wanderer]

I have always understood it so that Ancient Magic and Hedge magic Revised, which are later and compatible with TMRE and HoH:MC, trump HoH:TL. In other words, the first Major Breakthrough creates a new Hermetic or Supernatural Virtue, which the discoverer automatically gains. In order to teach it to other mages at all, or to do so without crippling penalties in the latter case, the discoverer needs to develop an Initition Script for the Virtue. A second Major Breakthrough removes this requirement, making the Hermetic Virtue an integral part of Hermetic theory (it is learned just like a Minor Breakthrough) or a Favored Ability for Supernatural Virtues.

[DIREWOLF75]

@Fruny

@Kazin ex Bonisagus

Answers, anyone?

IIRC, the answer is at the beginning of Ancient Magic.

No it isnt.

The only thing said there is that it can be initiated OR taught like a supernatural Virtue...
RAW however clearly states that only Sup.Nat. Virtues with an associated ability can be taught.

So how is a Hermetic Virtue taught when it does NOT have an associated ability?
I have actually asked this once already and didnt get a real answer that time either.

For virtues, a second breakthrough makes it part of Hermetic magic.

Yes but the question was what about BEFORE that second breakthrough. Its clearly stated in several places that Virtues CAN be initiated OR learned, but nowhere is there a valid rule for HOW it is learned.

[Fruny]

Just use the same rules about teaching supernatural abilities, requiring 5xp to get a pseudo-"1" score. As for how to evaluate the teacher's ability in those formulas where it matters, I do not know. Maybe just rule those methods as unapplicable, or somesuch. Or use a value derived from the number of breakthrough points, as in Ancient Magic, though it may make greater breakthroughs (when the number of points is variable, as with the examples in the books) somewhat easier to acquire (when the teacher's ability can be factored in the formula).

Direct teaching does not involve ability scores except inasmuch as the teacher must have a higher score, which is arguably the case if he has the virtue even though it does not actually have an associated ability, so it should always work out.

At least that would be my interpretation. Would you get the supernatural ability penalty? I'd rule that yes, since that is the point of the second breakthrough.

[Fhtagn]

@Wanderer

I have always understood it so that Ancient Magic and Hedge magic Revised, which are later and compatible with TMRE and HoH:MC, trump HoH:TL. In other words, the first Major Breakthrough creates a new Hermetic or Supernatural Virtue, which the discoverer automatically gains. In order to teach it to other mages at all, or to do so without crippling penalties in the latter case, the discoverer needs to develop an Initition Script for the Virtue. A second Major Breakthrough removes this requirement, making the Hermetic Virtue an integral part of Hermetic theory (it is learned just like a Minor Breakthrough) or a Favored Ability for Supernatural Virtues.

This is, I believe, where the RAW stand. And, if you do the maths, it is quickly shown that this results in magical research swiftly becoming impossible to introduce to the Order at large.

For myself, I find it rather unbelievable that Hermetic virtues not be teachable as part of hermetic magic theory - to my mind either a thing is invented via Hermetic research and thus is Hermetic and teachable or it is partially integrated (thus allowing it to be used as an adjunct to Hermetic magic and in inventing spells etc) but requires initiation to align your own magic with it instead - this latter approach should result in the initiation script itself, as the integration/research is what reveals to the researcher what needs to be done to gain the virtue. Researching said script would, in this form, also be a different, incompatible method of research and easier than true original research, though lacking Cult Lore, the script is likely to be tortuous, with variations made and growing easier as a Cult Lore builds up around the new or old knowledge. I suppose that a script would make an excellent source of Insight for OR though.

As far as teaching virtues, the RAW (as far as HoH:TL is concerned) leads me to believe Fruny's interpretation is correct.

[DIREWOLF75]

Just use the same rules about teaching supernatural abilities, requiring 5xp to get a pseudo-"1" score.

And exactly how high "pseudo-score" does a minor or major virtue require to be taught?
If its just getting those 5xp then major hermetic virtues becomes almost ridiculously easy to aquire.
How many years do you think it would take before every single magi has Flawless magic if all it takes is 5 xp from someone who has it already?
And who would ever want to use initiation for something so easy?

Direct teaching does not involve ability scores except inasmuch as the teacher must have a higher score, which is arguably the case if he has the virtue even though it does not actually have an associated ability, so it should always work out.

So does teaching a minor virtue require 1 season or 1 year of teaching? 30xp? 75xp? 250xp?
Again, thats what i, and probably the original poster is asking, because there are no guidelines on this anywhere.
(and "personally" we have used several different houserules on this over the years, and the common problem is that it either gets too easy(all magi soon gets all Hermetic Virtues there is) or too hard(only specialists or fanatics bother))

Would you get the supernatural ability penalty? I'd rule that yes, since that is the point of the second breakthrough.

Nonononononononono!!!!! The 2nd breakthrough would make it possible to use for anyone who knows regular magic theory as CLEARLY stated on page 30 HoH TL. The example used being Life Boost.
The first breakthrough creates a HERMETIC Virtue, NOT a supernatural one. HUGE difference!

For myself, I find it rather unbelievable that Hermetic virtues not be teachable as part of hermetic magic theory

According to all RAW, they clearly ARE teachable, only problem is that nowhere are there any guidelines what so ever as to how they are taught unless there is an associated Ability.

[Fruny]

Well, now I have my books right here.

Ancient magic, page 9, right column. The second paragraph deals with the abilities. Third paragraph deals with virtues. To me, it does override the "teachable virtue" bit in True Lineages. Particularly considering HoH:TL was unclear on the topic and didn't provide any actual rules. Sorry.

[DIREWOLF75]

@Fruny

Well, now I have my books right here.

Ancient magic, page 9, right column. The second paragraph deals with the abilities. Third paragraph deals with virtues. To me, it does override the "teachable virtue" bit in True Lineages. Particularly considering HoH:TL was unclear on the topic and didn't provide any actual rules. Sorry.

Right column i expect you mean? Doh never mind already in the quote you corrected it... lol...

Why should Ancient Magic override TL concerning original research, they are not dealing with the same thing. One is integrating something that already exist and has specific bonuses and limits, the other is going from scratch.
It would also create the bad situation that any Virtue that gives an Ability is silly easy to teach, while any "Virtue-only" has to be initiated, and that just becomes silly because then why would anyone do OR to invent anything without an associated Ability?

No thats just taking a convenient shortcut away from the question. We have guidelines for all(hopefully) other variations, but not for teaching Hermetic Virtues as is mentioned in several places that it can be done.

[Kazin_ex_Bonisagus]

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had this problem!

Our troupe has ruled that said "teachable virtures" can be learned via a summa on the subject. The summa will only have a level of One, and has the quality of a written tractatus (save for the fact that this can be read repeatedly like a summa).

The number of experience points we ruled should be equal to the number of breakthrough points that were required to discover the breakthrough in the first place.

An "average" Major Breakthrough requires 45 Breakthrough points. Therefore, it would require 45 experience points to "learn" the virtue. If that takes too long for some, there's always the option of initiation scripts.

That's our troupe's ruling, at least.