Temporary, magically-created food , nourishing?

There seems to be no Project Redcap page on the matter. :astonished:
If i missed a thread on the subject , could someone direct me to it please.
Or if any consensus was reached other than YSMV.

Does the Limit of Energy (ArM05 , p80) apply?

CrAq Guidelines , page 121

CrHe Guidelines , page 136

RoP:Magic , page 44
Greater Immunity (Deprivation)
Major , Supernatural

Deprivation ArM05 , p181

My interpretation would be that any Temporary , magically-created food or drink
works in a manner similar to that for Greater Immunity (Deprivation)
you dont lose long-term fatigue levels while you have access but it does not nourish you
so that you can regain long-term fatigue levels.

And it won't prevent you losing long-term fatigue levels

page178 , Long-Term Fatigue

Though i'm not keen on balance issues for relatively low-level spells
giving you the benefit of a major supernatural ability.

There was a huge thread about it some time ago, with interesting views and lots of rule references. I think the consensus was that the rules contradict themselves, but the most probably interpretation was that magically created food isn't nourishing at all - it just fills you up, providing no nourishment. That's just one interpretation, though. There were cool arguments about giants feeding off magically created food and whatnot.

Yeah, and the rules don't oppose themselves.
The Magicla being or aometing can't regain Fatigue Levels used in: spellcasting, combat bonus or sobrenatural abilities or powers uses, etc; but he didn't lose it by deprivation, it is clear. Do you use that house rule? Ok, since you can explain it way to the usefull "day to day" magic. To me the easily of little magic and Form Bonus to Soak are the first explanation to the +1 to the Life condition of the magi.
And there a maga of Magi of Hermes that has a spell for the magical and temporal food.

I din't fully understand your post, Mario. Ar eyou saying it is nourishing?

What magus of hermes are you refering to?


Are you saying that under Deprivation of water/food you should not regain Short-Term Fatigue?

The only effect of food is to cancel Deprivation. If magical food does that, it behaves the same a natural food.

Conscientia of Bonisagus ; Shulpea's Bowl (page 32 , MoH)

The specific food is determined when the item is enchanted.

I prefer using the variation that any food created with a long enough duration, and enough duration remaining when eaten, ie at least a few weeks, it works as regular food.

I would say no. If it is a problem in your campaign, then it's a story. Ars Magica has rules for magically created nourishing food already, in Ancient Magic, the Rune Magic section. It is, in my mind, the easiest "Ancient Magic" to find and research, so if you want it, make it happen, and get several stories out of it to boot!

My thoughts on this, for whatever they are worth, have very little to do with the RAW but rather with the ideas behind the rules...

Creating nourishing food or water isn't a matter of spell duration. It's a matter of creating the "mystical" property of food and water that makes it nourishing. Magically created food and water with a duration is, by it's nature, a temporary thing sustained by magic which ceases to exist when the magic ends. It lacks some essential property necessary to make it real and therefore it cannot nourish like real food and water. Whatever nourishment is gained from it is temporary and ends when the magic ends. Food and water created by ritual magic is real.

Examples of secondary effects like temporary magical fire burning or temporary magical horses leaving hoofprints are not equal to temporary food nourishing because nourishment is a more complex mystical function than burning or leaving hoofprints. Ultimately, nourishment is a life-giving property, equal to healing, and magical life-giving properties, like healing, require ritual magic.


(Yeah, I just copied and pasted this from the last thread where Direwolf75 and I disagreed on this point. :slight_smile: )

I don't think this is what is being argued. Any created substance works in the same manner as the natural equivalent.
Just whether eating only non-ritually created food (& drink) keeps you alive.
Not my intention to dispute house rules , being as they are House rules.

As David Chart edited Magi of Hermes ; at the very least , enchanted items cannot create nourishing food.
Same as they cant do permanent healing.

I mean that the magic, the day to day magics; normally spontaneus and the Form Bonus to Soak, are the explanation to the +1 Living Condition for Magi in a Convenant.
And that a Fatigue Level lost by combat (to get better the Attack doubling a Attack, a Scuffle damage, etc) and spellcasting o use of other Power or Ability aren't retaken way of magical food or drink not Permanent, it's needed true food, drink and rest. Other thing is that those things don't kill the Magical beings.

So is it viable to assasinate somebody by replacing their normal food with magically created food. A couple of weeks of feasting later, they drop dead from starvation?

Sounds good to me! :mrgreen:

If they can't regain long-term fatigue , they will probably be dead before two weeks , depending on Stamina checks.
As i read the Deprivation rules on page 180 , they would fall unconscious first due to fatigue loss.
Though they would suffer no actual physical symptoms before this happens.

Lazy! :wink:

Except so is that which is created non-ritually as well.

As ritually created food doesnt lack that property, you´re saying that something created nonritually isnt the same as that created ritually. Thats completely contrary to the game mechanics everywhere else.
So, clearly this difference cant be made unless you´re making it an exception. I much prefer to only have exceptions if it means avoiding something that is crucial for the game.

Aha! Ok, then what if by RAW we give it Duration Year, but NOT permanent? :smiling_imp:
And if it IS nourishing as long as it lasts, if it lasts long enough for you to eat something else, then do you mean that you get retroactively fatigued after its duration is up?

Not according to Lucius. :wink:

By my rules, yes if they have enough duration left when eaten. I use 2 weeks as minimum acceptable. Have sometimes added that thats only enough to keep you alive, while you need 4 weeks left to have it work as normal food... And some variations on that theme.

Sorry, i wasnt being clear, the RAW is that only ritually created food&water really works. I should have noted that i was preferring mine in contrast to that.

Which is actually kind of a problem for me, because it means you cant have the "perfect healing potion" or such.
You can probably guess by now that i´ve made some houserules for this. Oooh surprising isnt it? :stuck_out_tongue:

At the next Grand Tribunal we will lobby to remove your ability to Houserule. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes. Just like if you have a healing spell that cures a Light Wound with a Year duration. At the end of the Year, the Light Wound comes back. Even though time has passed where you could have healed that wound, you don't because there was no wound. It was magically healed... until the magic ends and the effect disappears.

By RAW, exactly. And if this sounds fine for healing, why not for food?
But then, you can HR it away if you don't like it. To me, it's just yet another thing that makes vis precious, but YMMV.

Btw, I may be wrong, but aren't there stories about people dropping dead after having eaten only "false" faerie food?
Anyway, I can certainly see a brave knight, after spending some time in an enchantress castle, going out fine, and then, sometime later, suddenly dessicating and losing weight as if starved because that wasn't real food, only magical one. This may be a good threat: "leave me and you'll die"

I'm on board with the nourishment only lasting as ling as the duration interpretation. The reference to the less debatable healing rules was rather well put.

It's pretty easy to see why they would make the rules that way. If it didn't take vis to make nourishing food then magi would never have a need for an outside source of food. Neither would all of mythic Europe for that matter. Granted i think you could do a ritual spell that makes like 100tons of grain from 1 vis but still.

Wasn't there somthing wierd about eating or breeding magically created animals in the book?

My thoughts are as follows - food in Mythic Europe is not consumed materially and added to one's physical form and matter, but is rather digested into something else. This digestion literally extracts vitality from the food and incorporates it into yourself; magical food thus incorporates magical vitality. The fact that the food would have collapsed back into fluid vis at the end of the spell doesn't matter as the congealed vis has, in the mean time, been worked upon and the bits necessary for life removed.

As such, I allow any food that lasts for more than a full day (which generally means Moon duration, save for other exotic durations) to nourish, but also rule that surviving on such grants 3 warping points per season due to the rate at which magic is incorporated into one's being. Should you want a canon justification, Sundered Eagle mentions that the inhabitants of Aegea subsist on Faerie food and the nonMerinita among them warp at an accellerated rate as a result.

But Faeries are not Hermetic Magi so the effects do not necessarily fall under the same rules.