The Best and Worst Virtues

Games Discussion Ars Magica
121

Hi,

I have been looking at the Anima RPG recently. One design feature, undocumented and perhaps unintended though I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, is the way some of their classes often look way better on paper than other classes because they give out all sorts of freebies for very minor costs, yet tend to actually be less effective.

A lot of this is due to opportunity cost: Every level provides only so many Development Points to spend, and every other level provides exactly one characteristic bump. Sure, that Wizard Mentalist class has the same cost for mentalist abilities as the Mentalist class, and the same cost for magical abilities as a regular Wizard, all for the low, low cost of only being allowed to dump a maximum of 50% of DPs into wizardry and 50% into mentalist abilities, rather than 60% for the normal classes (who has 120% to spend, anyway?) and for not getting the Wizard class benefit of one less expensive secondary ability. But that 10% difference is subtly important, that secondary ability is really useful for a wizard at half price, and there really aren't enough "virtues" to go around to make both sides very effective.

Something similar happens when loading up on non-Hermetic magics. Sure, some of these are awesome, but even if initiation is trivial ("Sure you can have a high powered Sahir living at your Covenant, and he will be happy to open Solomonic Arts for any magus who wants to learn without incurring any flaws because he is that good, because he is grateful for the refuge you provide, and for being able to sleep well at night knowing that posolutely, absotively, that the great and powerful magi of Hermes can easily defend themselves against the insignificant hedge wizard Solomonic rabble who might be so foolish as to try anything" (saga in a box :slight_smile: )).... wait, I was in the middle of a sentence:

...but even if obtaining the virtues are trivial, now what? Every season spent developing Solomonic Arts is a season not spent learning spells, enchanting items, boosting Arts or Parma, building up a lab, training an apprentice, increasing a Familiar's bond scores.... Every virtue taken at character creation that only effects Hermetic Magic is a virtue that doesn't help Solomonic Magic, and vice versa. As we've discussed in various threads, including this one, the right package of virtues can really make a magus shine (oh no, broken! :slight_smile:) compared to unoptimized virtues, let alone none at all.

So except for a few concept magi - which, btw, I wholly favor, optimal or not - a magus who is both Hermetic and Solomonic will probably be lame all around, with a few cute benefits. I suppose being marginally competent at many things can be an interesting schtick.

I have noticed that a magus with Solomonic Arts does not get the very best aspect of that tradition, the ability to deal with both aging and Warping forever; iirc, the rules state that magi get Twilight even if another tradition makes them eligible for another kind of Warping consequence.

I guess this is a verbose way of agreeing with what has come before. :slight_smile: (Hmm, with a plug for Anima, which I am finding quite interesting, and not only for the pictures :smiley:)

Anyway,

Ken

122

The virtue to take for that is "subtle opening" - which does, in fact, allow a magi to learn an incredibly large number of Supernatural virtues with little to no penalty.

However, as Ovarwa mentioned - it takes a season to learn each one. OK, so you know fifteen supernatural virtues at level 1. That's fifteen seasons of not reading a Root (21 xp) or a branch (~15 XP) or going on an adventure (20 xp?) or whatever.

The magi that I designed that had this was a ReVi lab rat who specialized in Integrating hermetic Insights: so yeah, he actually did have reason to go out and study Supernatural Abilities - but it wasn't for the ability itself: it was so that he could integrate the ability into Hermetic magic.

Intelligo magic with no penetration? (Integrated from Second Sight) You bet, and probably will get you in trouble with the Gernicus for Scrying issues.
Undetectable Shapeshifting? (Integrated from Shapeshifter) - Sounds good, and likely to have the Bjorner raise their eyebrows at you.
Really good spontaneous magic (Integrated from look-over-there-flying-monkeys!) No problem. Really.

But those are all saga-long goals. The character in question barely is started on those, so they're part of his long-term story arc. By themselves, the supernatural virtues really weren't all that great. Usually, as a player, I forgot I had them, as they weren't really part of the core concept. The Insight spells? Sure, used those on occasion. But not the Supernatural Abilites they were based on.

1 Like
123

You mention Subtle Opening quite a bit, but you really don't add the caveat that it's in a section on Hermetic Integration as a virtue that might exist through research.

124

Wow, JL and I agreeing. :slight_smile: The way I see it, any virtue that requires a breakthrough is a virtue that doesn't exist and cannot be taken without the breakthrough.

Also, the way I see it, any virtue that requires a breakthrough also requires GM buy-in, since many of these virtues are broken and all are optional, each not being permitted until there is agreement that with a breakthrough it is, and perhaps with a different amount of research than listed.

Anyway,

Ken

125

In the forum, discussing the rules, I tend to be really conservative. It's really easy to relax and add things into one's own saga, but it's hard to ratchet things back when you've gone too far. My experience is that the more liberal I am with interpreting the rules the higher the entropy factor of the saga. It is also ridiculously easy to make rulings that enhance one character at the cost of another character. For example all the Cautious with Artes Libarles and Philosophiae that was discussed earlier might make sense in a saga where everyone plays a Mercurian, and it's a further differentiation between those Mercurian magi. As a general rule, in a covenant with a number of different types of magi, I have greater trouble accepting it.

1 Like
126

Sure. I suppose the reason I don't mention it (along with any other Integrated virtue) is that "you can't use it unless the Troupe agrees" is functionally rule 0. In my previous troupe, for example, we had to modify how Circle/Ring wards work because one of the players didn't like "someone getting free enchantments", despite what the RAW said. There were other virtues I had to bargain for (such as the Ex Misc Warding virtue) - which are fully RAW, but the same player felt was too powerful.

So...yes. A player can't use them unless the troupe agrees. Just like everything else. There might be some subtext of "it's in the core rulebook, so therefore it's OK!" But as this thread shows, that's something of a strawman argument.

I do certainly agree that there are some Integrations that are completely over-the-top: the one-shot enchanted items (Learned Magicians? I think), for example, probably wouldn't ever get used at my table.

127

I tend to go with that too; and as Tellus noted the errata helps fix the The Sorcerer's Fork.

I think the idea of a MuVi effect to personalise a spell has many applications, and not just for the attribute increasing spells. Avoiding warping is something that I think should be foremost on a Magi's mind given it can have such negative effects later.

128

Hmm, now I wonder... If you are using Wizard's Communion to help a ritual, can you use R:Touch for your MuVi? I guess not...

129

Sorry, any virtue through Hermetic Integration requires a lot more buy in and troupe discussion than a Hermetic Virtue presented as already extant within the canon. I get that there is a rule 0, and any virtue is subject to review by the troupe, but a possible Hermetic Virtue available by dint of Hermetic Research is even more nebulous. And this virtue, in that it does not benefit the one who invents it, makes it even more nebulous than any other Hermetic Virtue, IMO.

130

I would argue that the default answer (and the answer I would myself always assume when making a character) is "No. Invent it." with regards to the integration virtues.
Most of them are fairly powerful, but mainly they are intended as rewards for stories. Taking them without stories feels... cheap somehow.
Same with the deeper mystery virtues really.

131

Totally agree. And you hit upon some other good points.

First it's one thing to look at how one virtue's performance compares to another, but it's really the combination of multiple virtues that's important. Which is better Puissant or Affinity? Um why not both? If your making a Bog standard Flambeau your probably going to want a Puissant and an Affinity in both Creo and Ignem.

Second though related Ars Magica is a system that REALLY (and I'm not sure this can be said enough) favors specialization. Up to and including the fact that a hyper-focused magi still has a broad selection of effects at there disposal.

Take a character built to cast high penetration BoAF's and little else. Having advanced almost no Art's but Creo and Ignem they will probably start play with a bunch of Ignem spell but also a bunch of utility Creo spells. They'll also be able to easily spont relativly high level effects in their chosen arts. Providing a huge toolbox of effects to play with. Not just creating fire but manipulation of cold and light, healing, improvment, mind control by creating thoughts and emotion, creating other elemnts and illusions.

Meanwhile as anyone who's tried to create a jack of all trades mage with a spread of techniques and forms your options are usually far more limited. The selection of good Low level spells can run out quick when that's all you can spend points on. Sponting is very hard with out at least one higher art score. Not that it's impossible to build a fun and intersting generalist wizard it's just harder then you might think.

One saying I've used a lot with Magi in Ars. It's easy to build a specialist wizard that's pretty good in general. But a good generalist is a highly specialized build.

132

My absolute loved one... Imbued with the Spirit of (Form). With Affinity, Puissant and Deft Form is my set loved to the Specialist (sometimes with Extractor of (Form) Vis), or with one generalist too, but only Imbued with Spirit of Vim. One doubt... would you let one user of this virtue use it to make Ritual Magic with Rigid Magic Flaw?

I am not sure about worst, but maybe I would make Tremere Focus on Mastery on Certamen, because that is used pretty different from one "true" Focus, and like Diedne Magic, you could take it with one Focus because there are not use to take advantage of both (with Diedne Magic you can indeed). Secondary Insight i was confused, but is pretty awesome to me now.

133

For the most part, when starting a new campaign, I sit down with the troupe and say, "OK - anything we want to have already partially or fully Integrated?" On the assumption that the Order isn't a static entity - and even if the book describes Hermetic Magic as State of the Art in 1220, there would likely be partial integrations already published.

It's also a convenient in-game way to have spells and techniques that fill in issues that the troupe doesn't like or want to deal with - such as having a "cure medium wounds" effect published that partially integrates Holy magic - so you pay with five levels of fatigue, instead of vis (but it was Jewish, so you have to be live righteously kosher for a season.) . Or a "Magi's first Aegis" - lvl 25, +1 size, that only costs 3 pawns of Vis to cast a year instead of 6, because it's got some Mercurean magic integrated.

I'll also see if I can throw in a couple of random, wacky integrations that aren't very useful, but are amusing and show of the Bonisagus as the hyperfocused nutjobs that they really are - such as the "Target: Frogs" or "Duration: my favorite barsong".

But if a player wants to take a specific virtue as part of a backstory - sure, it has to be okay'ed by the troupe. In the context of Subtle Opening, it was a partially integrated virtue of the character's paren, and a story of Pride and inability to admit failure, and was one of the main divides in the relationship the character had with their paren. (The paren is trying to figure out if he had succeeded in a Subtle Opening, but the PC refuses to learn any Supernatural Virtues - because the paren had burnt out the Gift in 3 other apprentices. Thus, the PC didn't want to give the paren the satisfaction of knowing that he had succeeded. And because he refuses to learn any Supernatural gift, the PC isn't actually sure if he actually DOES have Subtle Opening, and he's worried that if he attempts to Open the Gift of his own apprentice, he'll burn them out as well. Hence the bad relationship - he thinks that his paren has caused him to become sterile, magically speaking. Meanwhile, the paren feels guilty over buring out 3 apprentices, so hasn't attempted the experiment again - even though he PROBABLY got it right with the PC. But the paren isn't admitting that he did anything wrong.)

134

That's an excellent way to do things for a saga. I've done the same before, trying to get players to propose breakthroughs that have been integrated into Hermetic Theory. Each breakthrough expands the power of the game just a bit more, moving more and more into High Fantasy, and further away from Mythic Europe. Not all breakthroughs published should be turned on, just like not all Mystery Cults proposed in TMRE should be available to a given saga. As the poster pointed out in the OP, he's new to Ars Magica, it's probably not a discussion he's well enough informed to make a wise decision, even if he is the appointed ASG for his troupe.

[hr][/hr]

My personal opinion is that Flawless Magic is the best virtue in the game. I love spell mastery, being flexible with a repertoire of spells is really important.

135

The best virtue in the game is Major, Social: GM's Girlfriend

136

Flawless Magic and Flexible Formulaic Magic are my top two. Probably then Inventive Genius.

137

Ooh,

If we're onto favorites rather than best....

SFB: Both a favorite and a best, as I am overly fond of mentioning.

FM: I think it's a best, but it's not a favorite.

Puissant X/Affinity X: Both besties and favorites. I list them together because if one is good, both are better. (Except perhaps for Shapeshifting, which might not provide 2 extra animal forms for Puissant.)

Strong Parens: It's a great virtue for magi right out of Gauntlet, and it hints at a strong relationship with an NPC. A best and favorite.

Baccalaureate: Better than Educated. :slight_smile: It also has better flavor.

LLSM: A best and favorite. But use carefully.

Cyclic Magic: A best but not favorite.

FFM: Very good, but not a best. Or a favorite. It is held back by not being able to convert Ind to Group or back. It would be worthy if it allowed 2 alterations rather than one. It is also diluted by many people houseruling a mastery ability that allows the same thing for clutch spells.

MMF: As discussed.

Folk Magic: This can be really awesome and is flavorful. I'm pretty sure I've blathered about this at one time or another. But using charms can be a great way to spont without botches. Adds to Casting Total!

Magical Foci: If this can be taken without the rest of Craft Magic, again awesome and flavorful. Adds to Casting Total! This plus Folk Magic is better than Diedne Magic, IMO. I also love the flavor of a magus who obviously leverages props and correspondences for power. (I still want to play this.)

Most of the Criamon inner mysteries are favorites, full of flavor, but are too finely balanced to be best.

Glamour is very much a best, but not a favorite.

Giant Blood is neither a best nor a favorite. I think a good house rule would have melee combat use Str rather than Dex.

I hate botches, so anything that allows me to avoid them is a favorite, though is rarely a best.

Gentle Gift should be both a best and favorite, but the effects of the Gift are often given short shrift due to "good roleplay."

Book Learner is a best. Too bland to be a favorite.

Anyway,

Ken

138

Depending on how it's played, "Short Lived Magic" flaw is one of the nastiest minor hermetic flaws I"ve seen in a game.

I've finally had a player take it, and the effects are so re-occuring that I've finally upgraded it to a Major Flaw.

139

Yes, that's a very good one. My favorite is with Corpus as it makes healing much more manageable without requiring Holy Magic (or a Leper Magus). Plus, it can be combined with Mercurian Magic. Those two together are one of my favorites. The other of these combinations that I really like is taking Vim with a Verditius.

You sure you aren't confused now, having been correct before? It provides roughly the same experience as one of the good Minor Virtues for learning, like Book Learner, but it costs three times as much to get it. If you extend it to apply whenever you gain experience, then it's much better since you could put 1 experience in each of a Technique and a Form to get lots of experience from exposure. But that's a house rule we use and that it looks like others use.

140

I have a question. Why do I see so much more flak towards Secondary Insight than Elemental Magic? I mean, Elemental Magic's second benefit of ignoring requisites is mitigated by the fact that its xp-boosting effect will make those four Forms pretty decent anyway. Outside of that, Secondary Insight gives another +1 over Elemental Magic (a big deal for a Virtue entirely dedicated to giving xp +1s), it's applicable to whatever Forms you feel like, it happens based on Technique studying but the Forms get the free xp so you're generally empowering both sides of whatever shtick you're going for, and when you do decide to study your Forms directly you still get an experience benefit, even if it's lessened, while Elemental Magic offers no benefit if you're studying anything other than an Elemental Form. Elemental Magic can get a slight edge on how often you're able to apply it depending on where your SG fits on the generous/conservative sliding scale, as the definition of "studying" might be expanded further than Secondary Insight to include things like getting exposure experience in a Form for experimenting on another magus' item. However, your average Magi engages in standard study so often that, combined with the one point advantage Secondary Insight has over Element Magic, the difference is reduced to negligible levels.

I'm not saying Secondary Insight is mechanically great by any means. I'm emotionally attached to it, personally, but I get that it's not worth the three Virtue points it costs compared to the other Major Hermetic Virtues it's competing against from a mechanical standpoint. Yet I just haven't seen nearly as much ragging on Element Magic, which seems even weaker to me. Am I missing something?