The Captive Voice

Suppose Otho, an Imaginem specialist cast Veil of Invisibility and The Captive Voice on himself. He then takes the bag that holds his voice and puts in a out of the way place, propped open. He then goes someplace a good mile away and casts a spell, lets say Supple Iron and Rigid Rope which IIRC is touch range.

If Otho continues to incant the spell as normal, but his voice is now a mile away, does he have a -10 to the casting total for quiet casting? Or is the fact he is not being quiet but magic is carrying his voice elsewhere mean there is no penalty?

it is.

IMAO, yes he does.

Other opinions?

What wonderful scenarios get thought up when magic is involved!
Gut reaction: I'd still apply the -10 penalty as he cannot be sure he is pronouncing the words accurately and properly (a subtle but real effect), and the invocation works best when the words and gestures are used together. In fact I'm pondering the full -15 or a lesser penalty of some type, because the voice and gestures are still being made, but the gesture is local to the caster, but the voice is not.

That said, I see the point you're making about both the gestures and words not being able to be perceived at the point where the spell is cast, but are still being performed. Interesting, not sure. It raises a question on gestures still applying to the casting total if they are invisible or not at the same locale, which is common in games.

As a related fun factor, imagine how you do a range voice spell with this :stuck_out_tongue:

I don't think you could use a Voice spell, or Eye given the circumstances in the OP.

I'd impose the penalty.
First of all, we know that if the caster is silenced or quieted magically (and I'd say that whether the voice is destroyed or "shunted" to some other place should make no difference) R:Voice does not reach beyond the caster; which suggests that a caster magically silenced counts as silent for other purposes too. Perhaps more importantly, if we allowed the caster to avoid the penalty, there would be an easy way to get quiet casting essentially "for free" - this is the main reason why I'd impose the penalty.

Now imagine using a R:Sight spell to move your voice somewhere far, then casting R:Voice PoF from that point. And if you believe there should be a penalty, cast a hearing spell to the same spot.

Might as well CrHe a small gazebo as the target of those spells and hope there are no Eric closeby. :mrgreen:

Well, it raises the point of the voice and gesture roles in the act of doing magic.

With the exception of Range: Voice spell, the sounds or the voice of the magi has nothing to do to where the target is affected (Arcane connection and Sight range allows to affect target which are out of Voice range). So we can rule out that Voice carries the magical power to the target.

Since spell can be casted in many various languages with some minor breakthrough, it is not linked to the word itself, so it is not specific words of power (calling Enochean or Adamic or something else).

Finally, some mages are gifted with Silent magic, prooving that casting words are not a requirements.

Based on these three observations, I would see that words and gestures are more techniques to assist the mage in harnessing, focusssing and controlling magic to obtain a certain effect. So they are not need to make magic, but needed by the mage to help him obtain a predictible result.

If we consider gesture and words as mental and physical exercise to channel the magical energy, as long as they are performed in one way or another, it should not hinder the mage. However, if the mage does not "feel" his movements (through a PeIm: Veil of Touch) or does not hear his mantra (PeIm: Veil of Silence or Captive Voice), I don't think he can benefit from them. Hence, I would say he has the -10 for Voice, but not the -5 for gesture: he is invisible, but he feels his movement which help him centers his magical power.

One way to go around would be to design a small enchanted hearing: Voice from the Closed lab (InIm, Arc range, Hearing), which will allow the mage to hear what is happening in his lab, where he could have left the pouch with is voice trapped in. Then I probably would allow silent casting without penalty, or maybe only a -3 for the strange effect of hearing really his voice and not feeling it through his skulls (which is why people don't recognize their own recorded voice).

After a season of practice, I would completely wave off the penalty as the magus would be used hearing his real voice.

Explicitly verboten. You cannot affect the range of a R: Voice spell with other magic.
this would qualify.

Are you saying that a MuVi effect cannot extend R:Voice to R: Sight, or downward to Touch? Seems like the direct use of the MuVi guidelines.

No, that you cannot extend Voice, by ie. making your voice louder. ArM5, p. 112, definition of Range: Voice.
If you use MuVi to extend the spell's range to R: Sight, it is R: Sight, and so not bound by the limitations of R: Voice, by definition - but that also voids the trick suggested in

Infact, I was agreeing with

  • though that may have been unclear due to poor editiong. My bad.

If one has moved there voice and receives a penalty as if they were silent because they can't hear the incantation, then shouldn't one also receive a gestures penalty because they can't see the gestures they are making?

That's what I'd probably rule as SG; or a moderate penalty at least (circumstances, etc).

So if he had a spell on the bag so he could hear with it, he would get no penalty?

I pondered this more, and I would not impose the -10 penalty for no voice. The caster is clearly incanting, and he is not silent, even though he cannot hear his own voice. His voice may not reach to the recipient of the spell, but if the spell is not a voice range spell, it doesn't matter. To account for the fact that the caster cannot hear his own voice I would instead impose additional botch dice, at least two.

Probably, yup, bit seems a complex way to go though.

What is the advantage or trick of only being able to hear your own voice in that manner? Silent casting without being silent?

The Major Flaw Deaf provides two botch dice from not being able to hear the words being spoken, so I would think that would be at most two botch dice. That flaw would cover situations when someone had always been deaf and never had any direct feedback into how their voice sounded. This seems like it would call for a smaller penalty.

There are enough times where my mouth mispronounces words that I know perfectly well how to pronounce that two additional botch dice seems more than reasonable in situations where one can't hear what one is actually saying. Also, keep in mind I'm not applying a penalty for Quiet casting, since the words are being spoken, just that you can't actually tell that you are saying them correctly except by the sensation of your vocal cords and mouth.

A deaf magus will, 9 times out of 10, probably have virtues of quiet casting x2 to account for his inability to speak the words properly, which would offset the botch dice entirely.