The Covenant Build

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: What if we joined them
41

[tableborder][tr][th]Cost[/th] [th]Subject[/th] [th]Book Type[/th] [th]Level[/th] [th]Quality[/th][/tr]
[tr][td][center]31[/center][/td] [td][center]Creo[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]19[/center][/td] [td][center]12[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]31[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]19[/center][/td] [td][center]12[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]31[/center][/td] [td][center]Intellego (Holy)[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]17[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]31[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]17[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]31[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]17[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]31[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]17[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]30[/center][/td] [td][center]Muto (Holy)[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]30[/center][/td] [td][center]Imaginem[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]30[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]30[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]30[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]30[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td] [td][center]14[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Animal (Holy)[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Terram (Holy)[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]29[/center][/td] [td][center]Art[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td] [td][center]18[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]27[/center][/td] [td][center]Aquam[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]6[/center][/td] [td][center]21[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]45[/center][/td] [td][center]Bible*[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]10[/center][/td] [td][center]3[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]35[/center][/td] [td][center]Magic Theory[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]8[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]34[/center][/td] [td][center]Parma Magica[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]6[/center][/td] [td][center]16[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]33[/center][/td] [td][center]Finesse[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]6[/center][/td] [td][center]15[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]33[/center][/td] [td][center]Artes Liberales[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]6[/center][/td] [td][center]15[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]33[/center][/td] [td][center]Penetration[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]6[/center][/td] [td][center]15[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]33[/center][/td] [td][center]Philosophiae[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]6[/center][/td] [td][center]15[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]34[/center][/td] [td][center]Concentration[/center][/td] [td][center]Summa[/center][/td] [td][center]5[/center][/td] [td][center]19[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]154[/center][/td] [td][center]14 on Anything[/center][/td] [td][center]Tractatus[/center][/td] [td][center]-[/center][/td] [td][center]11[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]80[/center][/td] [td][center]8 on Anything[/center][/td] [td][center]Tractatus[/center][/td] [td][center]-[/center][/td] [td][center]10[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]81[/center][/td] [td][center]9 on Anything[/center][/td] [td][center]Tractatus[/center][/td] [td][center]-[/center][/td] [td][center]9[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][td][center]9[/center][/td] [td][center]Holy Magic Theory[/center][/td] [td][center]Tractatus[/center][/td] [td][center]-[/center][/td] [td][center]9[/center][/td][/tr]
[tr][th]596[/th] [th]Art Summa[/th] [th][/th] [th][/th] [th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]280[/th] [th]Ability Summa[/th] [th][/th] [th][/th] [th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]324[/th] [th]Tractatus[/th] [th][/th] [th][/th] [th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]1200[/th] [th]Complete[/th] [th][/th] [th][/th] [th][/th][/tr][/tableborder]

  • The Bible is a book with multiple uses, being a Theology Su L10 Q3 and a Church Lore Tr L3 Q3

29 BP lvl 11 QL 18 looks good its 2 season to 8 and 3,66 season to 11 (3. Form bonus)
31 BP lvl 19 Ql 12 is 15,8 season to 19 so also good
31 BP lvl 17 Ql 14 also looks good as its 10,9 season to 17
30 BP lvl 16 Ql 14 is also ok 9,7 season to 16 (4. Form bonus)
below 11 the only good even number I get is at lvl 8 QL 18 with 2 season but then its better to pick lvl 11 as it is good for 4 season and lvl 11 is the next Form bonus.
To not move around to much I took a single 6/21 and placed the aquam there that thompsja requested. The other he asked for was placed at 16/14 as the requested numbers no longer exist.
Tractus have still to be done by Trogdor.

42

What I mean is that a book written by someone who has the incomprehensible flaw would be paid for at the quality it actually is, not what it could have been without that limitation. In this case we have holy books which are effectively at one quality for most of the magi (default being non-holy magus) and at a second level for a few, and was wondering if there should be a change in the BP cost of those books which corresponds. Not that I can find any rule for such, just pondering if we should house rule it.

43

Holy Magic is in it self not incomprehensible its a different way of thinking and there where the problems in understanding between Hermetic Magic and Holy Magic coming from. Or would you say a Summa that only a person who already have a value of 1 in the ability it teach is worth 0 points because most people can't use this book? ... Think this future isn't arts limited to just 1 /2 or even less of our chars ... why would we have to pay the full cost for arts books?

Edit: Beside from RoP:D there at last 2 different groups (one as Ex Misc and the other as Jerbiton) with Holy Magic integrated into the Tebes Tribunal so it might be a minority within the Hermetic magus but a not to small one. This info also go together with how our covenant is build in the TSE two Jerbiton with Holy Magic and two Ex Misc with Holy Magic.
Edit2: Read TSE 133 there even way more groups listed with Holy Magic integrated within the Tebes Tribunal:

... with this large list it might actual the normal Hermetic Caster that start becoming the minority in this tribunal.

44

I see where you're coming from. The game assumes a hermetic basis for a library. The reasoning is that if holy books are incomprehensible to a standard hermetic audience, they should come at some sort of discount (e.g., paying for them at their hermetic Quality rather than their holy quality). But on the fence about that. There may be other books that are incomprehensible to a large swath of the covenant. Say only one member of the covenant has Second Sight. In that case a summa on Second Sight would be effectively incomprehensible to most of the covenant. Would that summa come at a discount as a result?

In the end I wish I could be certain I agreed with you. There's something that feels wrong about paying full freight for a book that most of the covenant can only use at half effectiveness. But then I consider that 1/5 (1/4?) of our covenant can only use the standard hermetic books at half effectiveness. In the end, I tend to feel that these books represent the efforts of the magi to acquire books, and that at least one magus has been trying to get holy texts for a good long while.

But I'm willing to be swayed. I'd be interested to hear what thompsja thinks about this.

If anything, the thing that makes me wonder is whether it's reasonable to assume that 1/5 of the books in the library would be holy magic books. On the one hand, I totally get that from a fairness perspective 1/5 of the covenant ought to get a say in 1/5 of the books. On the other hand, holy magic is supposed to be really, really rare. I have to question how easy it would be to get a lot of really good summae in holy magic. Standard hermetic magic has thousands of magi. It's not unreasonable to say that there should be an expert in every Art, even one with a high Com and Good Teacher. But there might only be a couple of dozen holy magi in the Order. It's much less likely that there will be an expert on any given Art and that he'll have a high Com and Good Teacher. Tractatus in the range of Q7-Q9 on holy magic should be comparatively easy to find. But high level/high quality summae and high quality tractatus in holy magic ought to be pretty hard to find. I don't doubt that the covenant would be willing to devote the resources to get Paulos the books he wants. I just question their availability.

Maybe the compromise is to give Paulos some good books to start with because getting new ones will likely be much, much harder than getting new standard hermetic books.

45

Sorry if I disagree but to me it actual looks more like at last 1/5 th of the whole tribunal is by 1220 using holy magic given the large list of different Holy Magic Traditions in the Thebes Tribunal. (TSE 133)
Beside we agree to settle in the place where a covenant with only Holy Magic user is so why should we have normal hermetic books instead of holy magic books?
Wasn't it even already a concession that we are not forced to play a character with holy magic? That now 4 out of 5 player decided to use this concession can't be my fault.
If you now want to punish the only player who at last try to uphold some ideas of the covenant as it is written in TSE so be it but then don't expect me to continue.

46

I guess the real question is just how many holy magi are out there. I've always imagined that there might be a couple of dozen, maybe as many as 50, but even that's pushing it in my opinion.

Consider, there are about 1200 current magi in the Order. That's an average of 120 magi per house. Mercere is a lot lower, and Ex Misc is probably higher (~180) and Jerbiton is a little on the low side (102)

Let's assume that there are only ten traditions in Ex Misc (which seems low to me). That means an average of 18 magi per tradition. So, by a very generous estimate, there might be 18 Holy magi in Ex Misc. I'd say a better estimate is a dozen or so. Again, let's be super generous and say that a full 10% of House Jerbiton is devoted to holy magic (far too high, in my opinion). That's 10 more holy magi. Add in the Holy Society of Sol Invictus, Kabbalists, Baal Shem, and Karaites, Hesychasm, and the Society of St. Cyprian and St. Justina. and you might have another couple of dozen holy magi. Because although these organizations may not be small, the number of Gifted members that they have will be. As I figure, at best you have four dozen holy magi in the order. Let's round that off to 50, which is a little over 4%. (Personally I'd go more with three dozen holy magi, which makes about 3%, though you could probably go to five dozen or about 5%.) Regardless, the number of holy magi in the Order is likely less than 5% of the Order. I would qualify that as "small."

47

You forgetting one big thing you can't look at the order as whole because the Thebean Tribunal use Greek instead of latin and so most of us have no use for the books in Latin.
But I probably step out now if that is the view from 2 of the remaining 4 player.

48

Alas, I disagree with that.

I don't think anyone is trying to punish you. But, as written, Holy Magic comes with a host of advantages and disadvantages. Some of the advantages are being able to ignore the bad effects of the Dominion, a huge advantage in a city-based game. One of the disadvantages is that the vast majority of books on the Arts are half Quality to you. So far as I see, that's not a bug, it's a feature. Lack of access to good books was always intended to be a counterbalance to the advantages given by Holy Magic.

And we're not saying that you shouldn't get any holy magic books. In fact, we're looking at giving you a relatively large amount of holy magic books in the starting covenant library based on what seems reasonable to us. But we are saying that holy magic books should be harder to find than standard hermetic books. I don't think that's unreasonable based on the way things are described in the source material.

And FWIW, we decided as a toupe to toss out the background for the as-written covenant in Thessaloniki and write our own. As I see it, there's no virtue in maintaining the tenor of that covenant, just as there should be no failing for not maintaining the tenor of that covenant. We decided to make our own covenant (though we did decide to be a relatively devout covenant) and people made up magi based on the tenor of the new covenant. You chose to play a Holy Magus, accepting the pluses and minuses that come with that choice. If you don't like the balance of good and bad with a holy magus, I urge you to make up a different magus.

49

Ok good by.

50

It would be a shame for you to step out over a minor issue of the BP cost of books in the library.

In fact, I'll note that silveroak was only saying that your books should cost us fewer BPs than standard hermetic books, not that you should have fewer of them. In fact, by his proposal we'd have more books in the library (including potentially more holy books) because some would cost less.

51

Its not the BP cost but that you 2 are telling me right now over and over that I can forget to find any books and supposed to fall way behind the rest of the covenant once we start!
And that despite I'm the only one who agreed to play a holy magus and wouldn't have done so if it wasn't the thematic of the covenant in TSE.
Edit: Also have a look at our Art Summa list and rub your eyes first! Why would we need more BP when for Hermetic Magic there still 13 books open to pick despite that there already 3 Hermetic summa in art?
Isn't that more then 1 book for each art? So why do we need to talk about a change in BPs?

52

I don't think that a holy magus can forget finding books on holy magic. But I do believe that if books on holy magic are as common as books on standard hermetic magic then it goes against the way things are written. Yes, I believe that if you choose to play a holy magus you're accepting that you will probably take a hit on book learning. You just won't have the number of books that a standard hermetic magus has. But, in recompense, you get to cast spells in a Dominion Aura without penalty. In order to cast in that same Dominion Aura, a standard hermetic magus would need a much higher CT (and would suffer lots of botch dice). If the holy magus can advance just as fast as a standard hermetic magus by reading books, the holy magus gets all the bonuses of being a holy magus without many of the disadvantages.

That all having been said, so far as I know, no one in the troupe is urging anyone else to play a holy magus. That's an option available to all of us if we want it. But there's no need for any of us to play one. It's a real advantage in a city-based saga, so it might prove useful. But it's not required. If you think that the disadvantages of playing a holy magus are worse than the advantages, no one will think less of you for not playing a holy magus. You could always just play a Craimon magus and drop the whole holy magus part of it. That would be perfectly okay if that's what you'd prefer.

53

Frankly, I agree with you. I think we have more than enough Art books, even counting that some of them will be holy Art books.

But I was just trying to explain silveroak's suggestion.

54

Still I disagree that it would be so problematic to get books written for Holy Magic in Thebes given the mention of 7 different Cults with Holy Magic that are part of the Thebes Tribunal and that not including any secret cults. Once again the whole order don't count because Thebes use a different language. I agree it will be more difficult to find books for Holy Magic then Hermetic magic but not by that much as you let it sound, especial because it appears that the only task for the angel Eiael RoP:D 29 is to guide and teach Holy Magus although more closely the Ars Notoria user. Also you know that Holy Magic is a major Virtue that have to be bought / gained before you can use it and in addition can forget all spells and magic Theory you learned up to this point. Sure the advance of casting in the Domain is great and worth a major virtue but if you compare it to faerie magic I think the extra penalties shouldn't viewed to extrem especial in a tribunal where the holy magic is apparently on the rise.

Edit: Also wasn't it a majority decision that we go for Holy Magic penalties in spirit of what we think is written and not according to what is exactly written in RoP:D? And now people complain that 1/5 th of the Art BP (even if it looks like we are only 4 left and so I should enabled to take 1/4th) can't full used by them? I'm even sure I warned that going in spirt instead of what is exactly written in RoP:D can cause problems. Anyway I think I should sleep over my decision to drop out but one thing is for sure I don't start over once again with the character creation.

55

I fully recognize that I'm just once voice among many. And I never claim to be 100% right in any of my interpretations. I guess I've just always envisioned holy magic as a kind of a hedge tradition on the fringes of the Order. I suppose that's in part because RoP:D notes that the Order usually considers holy magi to be hedge wizards. It always seemed to me that if there were a significant number of holy magi, they could demand parity. I also figured that if hedge wizards were a significant portion of the Order, that there would be more information on them than just a few pages in a couple of books.

But you do make a good point that there would probably be more holy magi in Thebes than in any other tribunal. (Though the Jewish traditions may be stronger in the Levant.) That means that there would be more books on holy magic in Greek than in Latin (though the Jewish traditions probably write their books in Hebrew). How many more? I don't know. I suppose that's for the troupe to decide.

I guess I find it hard to believe that holy magi make up even as much as 10% of the Theban Tribunal. Such numbers would make them a match for any house and would give them significant political power, yet nothing is mentioned of them as a powerful faction in TSE. I suppose I look at the various holy magic organizations and envision them as being made up of a pyramid with Gifted holy magi at the top and support personnel forming the base. (Much as I envision most mystery cults.) The organization itself might be large, but the number of Gifted holy magi is relatively small.

I also get the impression that holy magic is not as old as the Order. It's growing in devotees, but hasn't been around nearly as long as the Order, and so hasn't had as much time to accumulate lots of books.

But as I say, that's just my opinion. If the troupe wants to say that I'm wrong and that holy magical books are plentiful in Thebes, then I won't argue. Moreover, if we want, as a troupe, to say that we're going to make holy books more plentiful for play balance reasons, then I can see that too. But I stand by my belief that, as the setting is written, holy magic books should be harder to obtain than standard hermetic books.

I will note also that holy magi get a bit more than just being able to cast in Dominion auras for their virtue. They are attuned to both Divine and Magic auras meaning not only do they not suffer a penalty in Dominion Auras, but they gain a benefit. They may also use long-term fatigue as vis in rituals. That's huge. It is, as you point out, an easy way for a holy magus healer to earn tokens, and is darn useful in other ways besides. They may use the Dominion for laboratory activities as well as casting. That's not so big given that we have a strong magical aura. But it could be a real advantage in many circumstances. They gain access to holy power guidelines as spell guidelines. That's not insignificant either. It allows a holy magus to do things that no purely hermetic magus could hope to do. They also gain new range, duration, and target categories,which can be particularly helpful. So, holy magi get a fair bit. They give up a lot too, I don't deny. But it's not for nothing. Is it worth a major virtue? Well, that's up to the individual player to decide. For some builds it will be; for others it won't. Some players will like the concept; others will not. I will note that it's much better if you're going to have a city-based saga like this one. My point is that it's not a one-sided bargain. It is what it is, and you have to decide if the good balances out the bad.

56

FWIW, I don't think anyone ever complained that you were getting a given percentage of the books. In fact, I specifically said that we wanted to make sure that you got some good books. And we accepted every proposal for book allocation that you made without complaint.

This whole issue started when silveroak suggested that holy books should costs us less in BP, which won't effect how many holy magic books the library has at all.

57

A Holy Magus has a disadvantage with regards to learning, there's no getting around that. Learning by studying vis isn't impacted at all, and that can mitigate some of the problems. Consider Free Study.

During game play, if a player was searching for a summa, by writing letters, I'd add 3 to the Ease Factor if you required a Holy Book, all things being equal. With regards to the BP costs of Holy Books, I'm OK with them being reduced since most of the covenant finds Holy books of reduced value.

Everything in Ars Magica is a trade-off, being better in a field means giving up something else. Trogdor, you have expressed it far better than I can. For me, I've chosen to play a senior magus, and many of the books will be useless to him because his Arts will be higher than the level of the summae. This is my choice.

58

unless it increases them, since spending the same number of points would net us more books...
If Thebes has 7 groups at 4-7 members each that is 28-49 magi in the Theban tribunal. Admittedly Thebes is in a way the primary tribunal for Holy Magi, and the literary isolation due to using Ancient Greek instead of Latin will tend to make that point more significant in the ability to find books...
... which has a counterpoint to my original point- that there should not be a discount because these books are rare and thus harder to obtain for the covenant. However other books are not more expensive because they are harder to find, and there simply isn't another situation where the same book has two SQ levels depending on who reads them.

59

We agree to disagree about the spread of summa in Holy Magic at the Thebes Tribunal for now. :wink: Anyway I already expected that my character need to learn Hebrew at some point and never get the help of a single lab text ... I even decided to use the first apprentice to invent spells and once the game start to find the time to write them down so that the current apprentice and future ones have a reasonable start.
Also I don't think that beside the intellego book my character will study any other art summa in the next 10 or 20 years as he need to improve or even learn some ability also.
About using guidelines for Holy Power here you kind of wrong as you already need to be able to use the guidelines via a Supernatural Power and Supernatural Methode combination before inventing a spell or more likely a ritual using them. That means you need 2 more major virtues to make use of this.
I never said Holy Magic is a bad major virtue but if you compare it to the minor virtue faerie magic the drawbacks assigned to Holy Magic shouldn't be pushed to hard. (Faerie magic also give new range, duration, and target, add its level to your magic theory if used right and help you with faerie domains)
Beside I think Holy magic predates the order by eons even if I'm not sure how it works outside the hermetic framework the Jewish tradition having holy magic should be older then the Order. Then for Sol Invictus is 270 AD given as the start of this tradition with Holy Magic as favored ability. (This tradition was invited to join house Jerbiton in the early 800s)

60

If we have some holy magic summae and tractatus, I don't see why we couldn't have some holy magic lab texts.

I clearly did not fully understand how the use of guidelines works.

I stand corrected.