Since we're talking Vis Income, it seemed relevant to me to talk about the covenant BP expenditures as a whole. After all, what we spend on Vis Sources we're not spending on something else. I was just trying to figure out how we'd want to spend our total BP, and thought it was worthy of debate. It has been suggested that we have 2000 BP to work with (with each player having an additional 100 BP on top of that). That seems more than generous to me, as it puts us on the high side of the "High" power level. It doesn't seem to me as if we warrant "Legendary" status.
We need to spend BPs on the following:
Vis sources and stocks
Library
Lab Texts
Money
Specialists and Teachers
Enchanted Items
Labs
Here's one example of how we could spend our 2000 BP:
VIS SOURCES: 260 (52 vis/year) VIS STOCKS: 20 (100 vis) LIBRARY: 1200 (it's never enough) LAB TEXTS: 200 (1000 levels of spells) MONEY: 10 (100 MP) SPECIALISTS:100 (This will allow for a good number of teachers for the school) ENCHANTED ITEMS: 160 (400 levels of effects) LABORATORIES: 50 (one basic guest lab)
I painted with a broad brush on this one. Clearly once we start figuring out the details, the numbers will get a little uneven. But at least this proposal gives us a starting point for debate. This also pegs us at a little over the proposed 50 vis/year. If we ultimately decide as a troupe we want to go higher than that, we'll have to find the points to pay for extra vis sources from somewhere else. (Maybe from a player's private BP source?)
We'll also want to address the status of things purchased with the 100 personal BPs. Will they be privately owned? Clearly vis stocks bought and spent will be gone. Lab points will be devoted to a particular magus' lab. Magic Items might be for personal use or for the lab. Specialists might be for assisting in a magus' lab. But what about books, lab texts, and vis sources? Will they be privately owned or owned by the covenant? Saying that they're privately owned would leave open the possibility of someone starting with up to 20 vis/year in private vis sources, which doesn't seem like what we're looking for.
What are people's thoughts on the matter? FWIW, my thoughts on expenditures from the 100 personal BPs are as follows:
VIS SOURCES: should be owned by the covenant VIS STOCKS: can be owned personally LIBRARY: should be part of the covenant library LAB TEXTS: should be part of the covenant library MONEY: can be owned personally SPECIALISTS:can be for personal support (e.g., a lab assistant) or for the benefit of the covenant as a whole ENCHANTED ITEMS: can be owned personally or used in your personal lab LABORATORIES: can be for your personal lab
There was the suggestion that we might pay 100 (all 5 magus size +1) or 200 BP (all 5 magus size +2) that all magus could start with a larger Lab.
For Enchanted items we for sure need at last 1 item to detect the gift because its common in Tebes to check in the schools for future apprentices.
We might need to talk what books or lab text are Holy magic based because at last the lab text, probably art and maybe some ability as well are incomprehensible between Holy Magic and Hermetic Magic.
(I will make a new posting where we can talk about the exact details of the incomprehensible we want to use as the part in RoP:D isn't realy that clear and there is no errata on it)
Here also how I spend the 100 BP so far:
BP usage of the 100 per player:
21 BP Suma Divine Lore lvl 4 Ql 9 Sentences I (in Romanic Greek)
11 BP 25 Vis - 1 left
60 BP Lab Size +3
8 left for familiar and maybe specialist or enchanted items
That always seems like cheating to me. I agree that it's easy enough for us to just make grogs. But it always feels strange that if I make up the grog it costs nothing, but if I just take the value it costs BPs. I've reviewed Through the Aegis, and every single covenant spends some points on Specialists It can't be that the people who made these covenants up are all dumb people who don't know the dodge against spending points on Specialists. I'd just feel funny spending nothing on specialists.
But in looking at the covenants in Through the Aegis, I note that Jardin has only spent 39 BPs on specialists, while Collem Leonis has only spent 17 on specialists. (Others spend 200+ on them.) But apparently that means that spending lots on specialists is not a must.
How about this, as a sop to my conscience we spend 20-30 points on specialists, maybe to get some teachers for the school? Then we can make the rest up as grogs.
To me the only reason to spend build points on specialists is because nobody wants them as characters. If you have seen the way I handle mass grogs in any game, that does not apply to a game I am in. Certainly I expect we will have well under the 146 grogs I am playing (NPC) in Praesidium Orae. Of course here the grogs will all be in the group pool for anybody to run...
45 BP The Bible Summa Theology lvl 10 Ql 3; Church Lore lvl 3 Ql 3 (in Classical Greek)
30 BP Physics Summa Philosphiae (Natural Philosophy) lvl 6 Ql 12 (Author Aristotle in Classical Greek)
23 BP Libri Almagesti Summa Artes Librares (astronomy) lvl 5 Ql 8 (Author Ptolemy in Classical Greek)
93 BP
This way we at last have some covenant copy of common book used in the school education. (I looked in A&A 136+ for suitable summa that where written in Classical Greek)
Edit: For The Bible I'm not sure if the calculation of adding both summa together is correct or if only the Theology summa count for the BP.
For Penetration, Finesse and Concentration I think it also would be good to have lvl 6 Ql 15 summa costing each 33 BP despite they probably cheaper to buy via MP.
Summa for Language, the different version of Theology, Teaching, House of Hermes Lore, Magic Theory and Holy Magic could be picked if we have BP left after buying Art summa.
(keep in mind for the Art Summa we might need 2 different version depending on how we go with the downside of Holy magic.)
So, pushing this forward, what would people think about this?
ENCHANTED ITEMS: 70 (only 175 levels of effects, which seems a bit low, but the points have to come from somewhere) VIS SOURCES: 250 (50 vis/year) VIS STOCKS: 20 (100 vis - low for Thebes) LIBRARY: 1200 (should get us a decent library) LAB TEXTS: 200 (1000 levels of spells) MONEY: 10 (100 MP - low for a covenant as wealthy as we are) SPECIALISTS: 0 (under protest) LABORATORIES: 250 (one basic guest lab of size 0, and five standard labs of size +2 for the magi)
I know we'd all love to have more of this or more of that. But even 2000 points only goes so far.
Some thoughts on library: Poenitens will be an excellent teacher, books on teaching are unnecessary. In addition, Poenitens will have written several tractatus on various magical topics. Trogdor's most recent version of Build Point distribution works.
I also find it strange to go with 0 point in specialist but if silveroak is so sure that created grog don't cost BP then why not.
(Personal I stay with the toolmaker as familiar so this is even covered without a free grog)
Paying for a +2 size as standard lab is great for my magus as it open up 40 points of the BP I expected to be spend
The income of 2 years as vis savings sound fine and enough for me.
So over all I'm ok with it.
That leads to a good question as to how many of our Art books will be Holy Magic books/lab texts. Obviously those books are much, much rarer and harder to get, and only benefit one magus. We might have a few, but I don't think they'll come close to matching the books on conventional Arts/spells.
Unless there is a other magus with Holy Magic I personal would be for the fair 1/5th split of the pure art books and lab text. Because Paulos is already at Holy Magic 8 I don't think there would be a summa that still can help him, so only if we spend quite some point in Magic Theory books then a Tractatus or 2 in Holy Magic would be good but otherwise it should be fine.
Edit: For Parma Magica I personal don't think there hermetic books and even less so Holy Magic variants.
Trogdor has set out a new thread to hold the items of the Covenant. How should we decide what they are? I propose each player come up with 100bp "lots" of lab texts, books, and items. We discuss a lot, and if we agree, Trogdor edits the post to include the lot. We repeat until done.
As an alternate way of deciding on what books we have, we could create a shell library to say what we want in general and fill it in based on debate. For example, we could say we want the library to ultimately look like this:
Of course, this leads to the debate of what Art and Ability should get what level book. We'll all likely have different ideas of what to prioritize. But at least this way we know we'll have a good distribution of books, instead of having five books that are 20/11 and no books that are in the low range.
For my part, I'd say that if we go with this paradigm Magic Theory ought to get the level 8 summa, Parma Magica and Artes Liberales ought to get level 6 summae, Finesse, Penetration, Theology, Philosophiae ought to get at least level 5 summae.
Yes, I'm fully aware that if we waited until the game started, we could buy the academic ability summea for cash instead of BP. But it goes against every fiber of my being to say that our late summer covenant has gotten this far without any academic summae, especially since we're associated with a school.
Sorry to say it but I'm complete against any books for Parma Magica as this is supposed the biggest secret of the Order of Hermes and so should be direct learned from a other magus instead of learned via books.
I'm with you that we should have some common books in the library that why I earlier pointed out some common summa given in A&A. I.e. we absolut should have the Bible at start despite it should be one of the most easy to get books later on.
I understand the opinion that no books on Parma Magica exist. We'll have to decide as a troupe whether we'll go with that interpretation.
Frankly, I think the whole idea that the secret of Parma Magica has been kept for all these centuries is pretty far fetched. You're telling me that there has never been a rogue magus who taught it to hedge magi? And you mean to say that the Order has been 100% effective in stamping out any leaks over all this time in a spread out order with medieval communication? I find that hard to believe. So, as I see it, from the suspension of disbelief that the secret has been kept, it's not that far a leap to suspend disbelief to say that they've managed to do so with books on the subject in existence.
But as I say, that's just my opinion, the decision on whether Parma Magica books exist is one to be made as a troupe.
Yes, the Parma Magica is one of the key reasons that the Order is the dominant magical tradition in Europe. However, many mages, especially ones focused on combat will want to maximize their talents. Teachers may not be available. I don't think that there is any prohibition on Parma Magica books. Every book owned by a Hermetic covenant is protected and cherished.