The Eagle has landed

Games Discussion Ars Magica
61

Well folks, it is later and I think that I can add only a little without spoiling too much. I will point out a few things that I found I have to deal with in detail if i am going to accept the setting as written. A couple are below. I'll post others later.

  1. The currency of favors and infractions:

In the book, we are presented with the idea that vis is NOT the currency of the Tribunal, but rather "shards" and "tokens". These are awarded for actions by an individual magus, as a means of encouraging unselfish behavior, and can be traded. The motivation for this early on in the posited history of the Tribunal is well founded but what is not clear is why it has been maintained for so long AND is generally considered 'fair" by the Tribunal.

Consider that shards and tokens need to be recorded with a Redcap. This, I suppose, is a requirement to prevent fraud and forgery (understandable) and while the fraud can be significantly curtailed, I'm not sure that forgery can. Might be missing something here, but it seems to me that one ritual CrTe spell and a competent craftsman to ding them up individually and you can have some extra tokens around. Again, the Redcap registration takes care of this ASSUMING the lists are well kept and accurate. It seems that this would require more than the usual running around.

Further, if a magus wanted to keep a favor secret for whatever reason, then, one supposes, he could resort to a vis trade. All fair a good, but then we get to a question where the vaule of vis is somewhat lower. How much lower? That is, is a season's service (and secrecy) worth five pawns? More? Less? I'm not asking for guidance, here, just making folks aware that this is one of the questions that will need to be answered.

Finally, given that all these are recorded by Redcap, as well as formally announced at Tribunal, I would think that Reputations would be more widely known (given that there is a record) and communicated more broadly. I need to fiddle with the mechanics of this, but one can probably make the case that each token or shard counts for a certain number of points on the character sheet. And, since it is written down in a log withthe Redcaps, changing a Reputation would be that much harder. Just a thought.

  1. The effect of the Sack

I would have expected a MUCH more fractured Tribunal due to the Sack. Greek and Latin magi hating each other (and all of them spitting on the failed Jerbitons). Essentially, for such an involved Tribunal (at least as described) I feel the need to determine the motivation for Greek and Latin magi working together (or not) on a case-by-case basis as background, let alone in an actual setting. Given that the Infernal is now (5ed) canonically involved, I would think that they (it?) would be working hard to foment the fracture and would be further along in that than they are. I've read the section on the infernalist adn think that he would have accomplished much more. Perhaps the Divine is working hard opposing this in the Order. Not clear.

Here I am asking for guidance from the authors on motivation and dealing with this situation. Some advice would be appreciated.

===

All in all, I am very much enjoying the originality presented and look forward to making everything fit.

More stuff later.

62

Got mine in Orcs Nest yesterday lunchtime (that's in London, England) :smiley:

63

You raise some interesting points Verticius, I'll try to answer as best I can.

As you say, it hearkens back to the traditions of classical Athenian democracy, which at least for some altruistically- or traditionally-minded magi, is a good reason to keep it. More practically, the essential idea that time (i.e. seasons of service) is a more effective currency than vis makes sense if vis is devalued by an excess of supply. I'm not sure that completely answers your question, but I guess the issue of fairness depends upon the viewpoint of the magus! If they believe in the altruistic principles underlying the system, then they will likely consider it to be self-evidently fair. Other magi might grumble at what approaches forced service to the Tribunal or their peers, but they are presumably in the minority, thus the system persists.

For that matter, one could just as well toss a shard into the nearest ditch. :smiley: As you point out, it relies upon the integrity and diligence of the Redcaps in their record-keeping, or else it would never work. I guess it's a similar issue to voting sigils: in principle, there's nothing stopping a magus from conjuring up a dozen voting sigils and taking them to Tribunal, but presumably there is some kind of oversight...

If a magus thinks he has (or will have no problem getting) all the vis he will ever need for his projects, then I imagine it will be difficult - although not impossible - to bribe him with vis. Still, there would still be some theoretical vis-to-seasons equivalent, it's not like you couldn't find someone to work for you for a huge amount of vis...

Good point, I'd suggest as a rule of thumb that each token would equate to an XP in a positive Reputation, and each shard an XP in a negative Reputation.

I guess the first point is that there simply aren't that many Latin magi! Apart from the Tremere covenant (who are mistrusted due to the local history with House Tremere), there are only (IIRC) two or three Latin magi described - they are in a tiny majority, not enough to form any kind of faction or wield any kind of collective power.

Of course, a saga where there has been a large influx of Latin magi, leading to anarchy or war, all orchestrated by powerful demonic forces, is equally valid... There surely are Infernal agents working to corrupt the Order in Thebes, but I imagine that would be a sideshow compared to the far more valuable prize of Constantinople.

As far as I recall the process, there was an early decision to go with a (relatively) peaceful and altruistic portrayal for the Tribunal. I think this was in large part a reaction to the previous two Tribunal books, in particular, The Lion and the Lily, the most recent, which is a strife-ridden Tribunal. The Rhine was less openly full of strife, but fractured and with a sense of "faded glory". So it seemed to be high time to return to a more Greater Alps type Tribunal, with a more successful and prosperous Hermetic situation.

Having said that, it is always interesting when the Hermetic practices of a Tribunal mirror the mundane practices. This is definitely the case for the feudal-like workings of Normandy. However, this can be overdone, turning the Tribunal into a parody. I see a much stronger case for cultural influence which endures over centuries, rather than short-lived events such as the Fourth Crusade. (Of course the sack of Constantinople had a huge effect on the covenants in the city, however.)

Hmm, I hope this goes some way to answering your questions. As always, you should go with whatever feels right for you and your saga, so if you want less altruism, more Latin magi, and more anarchy, more power to you... :smiley:

64

I've only had time to quickly read through the book but I can already say that I enjoy it more than I have any other AM product for several years. It's chock full of good ideas and tidbits to stimulate the imagination. And it's all background and flavor, with no new rulesets to learn.

I think the book does a good job of combining the mythic Greek past with the Byzantine "present" (or at least recent past, pre-1204). I also like seeing the alternative form of Tribunal organization, distinct from the familiar one in the Western oriented books. I've always been in favor of more regionalism in the OOH.

I do think there's something to the criticism voiced here that "current" events should have more impact on the Hermetic landscape. The Byzantine lands c.1220 are not obvious candiates for the sort of timelessness that works so well in the Alps. Still, I would never use any Tribunal supplement out of the box, as it were, and it's easy enough to add layers of conflict on top of what's presented.

The only other recurring item in the book that irks me is the presentation of the pagan gods as Faeries, particularly in light of the postmodern conception of Faerie in the RoP book. This issue far predates the current book and can't be laid at the feet of it's authors, but it definitely doesn't work for me.

It's also worth noting that this isn't a book for the beginner or casual Ars player. You have to have a fairly complete set of AM5 books to use the material that references them throughout the text. Also, there's a lack of game stats for personages and supernatural entities, which can be forbidding for the casual player. Personally though I didn't mind either of these things and appreciate that both save space for flavor material.

65

I've only had a chance to skim through it, but I definitely like it. Probably my favorite thing is how it's been tied to what shows up in lots of other books. I think that helps make the whole line feel connected and more real while also giving good ideas for a storyguide.

Has anyone found Polydegmon of Hedyosmos in Chapter 5? I can't find him. :frowning: Thanks.

Chrs

66

I didn't find hime, but i suppose tahta is other of the members, the citation is for the Covenant nor only for him.

67

Ah, I see now. I believe you are correct. So we know Polydegmon is either from house Guernicas or house Tytalus. I thought there might have been some interesting comments about him earlier considering the later comment.

Chris

68

With possibles Erratas thing in mind, the book brings other things:
1)it bring some Shape and Material examples.
2)some books to the list of Mythic Library.
I think taht no more to the web contents. Many time to see it in the web?

69

I was thinking about NPC's as a skimmed through this book. I like that their stats aren't fully fleshed out, giving storyguides the room to set them an a campaign-specific power level. Besides, I find most of the time I don't need stats so much as a paragraph about motivations and the like. But I also don't want a sourcebook to give me every single mage in a tribunal. This book seems to do a fantastic job giving us plenty of pieces without stepping on our toes. Bravo!

Along the lines of NPC's, I also started thinking it might be nice to maintain a sticky or maybe make a PDF for the website containing names, houses, covenants, and page references of magi and names, locations, and page references of covenants that show up in canon. I'm not sure I'll get around to it, but I would be happy contributing to it.

Chris

70

A small number of magi were cut from the book, for space reasons. Polydegmon was one of them; he was (is) an elderly Tytalus seeker who used to be a magus Ex Miscellanea.

71

Hm.... I smell potential web supplement? If the material has no likely future home...?

Vrylakos

72

I would also invite any authors who have leftover material that was cut to consider posting it to the Web, at either SHR or Project: Redcap. To have some previously-unpublished material by an Ars Magica author would be a real feather in the cap of either site. Plus, it would get the material out to the fans without Michelle having to do layout work.

Project: Redcap still has some usability issues but I am glad to work with any potential contributor. I can go so far as to just have you send me text files and post them for you.

Of course you will need written permission from John Nephew before you re-publish anything that was written under an Atlas contract, but not used. (Yes, posting something to the Web is publishing!)

73

Well, they do come with predefined ages, which does relate pretty directly to power level. I just expanded a version of Jacques of Flambeau from The Lion and The Lily (p81) so I can have a specific magus to robthe suppy carivan of our covenant. The fact that he was only 10 years out of guantlet gave me pretty strong constraints on how powerful he was.

Is your game set in any of the tribunals which have books detailing them? I know that when when the Alpha Storyguide in our game was preparing for the Normandy Tribunal, and we started playing out the tournament events, some more details on who we were competing against would have been helpful.

Now, that may be an artifact of the confrontaitonal nature of the Normandy Tribunal. Stats are more important if it is someone you are going to be fighting. AsThebes is more cooperative, descriptions of personalities can get you through most situations. But if you are going to have a magi who is almost certainly chalange the party to certiman so that he can rob them, you are going to need stats for him if he is going to be used

74

Yes and no.

It is well known that canon advancement contradicts itself. If you use the (30 - 10 per season in the lab) pts/year, you will end up with very weak magi. If you use something more akin to the advancement rules, you end up with more powerful magi. The advancement rules give you 8 pts/year if you spend all your time in the lab, and with books being a commonly used source, will give you closer to 40 or so on the upper end. Similarly, 15 years of apprenticeship should give you a minimum of 90 experience from exposure, plus 9 seasons of teaching (averaging at least 9, probably at least 10 or 11 points each), plus your spells (can be done in 2 seasons pretty easily by most), and that's if your parens uses you in the lab 100% of the time he's allowed to do so (which is very nearly non-canon). If your parens gives you a free season every other year to read, then complex advancement sets us above the basic advancement.

Also, how powerful the magus is also depends on virtue/flaw choices and specialization.

Absolutely. I make sure magi who may be competing have the necessary stats figured out, but I find I don't need to bother with the majority of the magi since so much is social or political stuff. True, we don't play in Normandy.

Chris

75

Well, I feel pretty comfortable with the 30 points per year, since I figure the seasons with high level sources are balanced with seasons with low level sources. If your choice is between a L11 tractatus in Vim and practicing Parma Magica for 4 XP, you may be practicing Parma Magica if that is what you really need to improve. I also feel comfortable with the rules for aprentices, but this is not the thread to argue the point. If you are using variant rules on advancement, or any other sort of house rule, the more detailed the character, the more likely it is not to fit. Which is probably why Jacques was not detailed and one of the grogs was. However, to use the situation as written, I am going to have to generate Jacques stats.

76

I'm totally stuck on this one. What does "culture direct" as a sympathy trait mean?

Chris

77

Respectfully, no, I don't think you do, in the sense that I never have, and John and Michelle have never indicated they considered it to be necessary. I am not a lawyer, of course.

Once Atlas has bought some of the document and turned down the rest, I'm not clear on how the parts they have rejected remain in play for the NDA. The NDA concludes at publication regardless. You are not to discuss the process, but...that's not discussing the process.

78

One thought about the relative abundance of Vis in Thebes: why do market forces not cause it to be exported to where it is more valued? Enchanted items, and perhaps books (might be a language barrier) could be exported eastwards in return.

79

I think that technically stuff that makes it into a draft but is subsequently cut either by yourself or David (or John or Michelle) is still owned by Atlas. There is a possibility that Atlas might use it in another book, or in it's own on-line material, for example. Particularly (I guess) if material is cut solely for word-count considerations, or perhaps because it duplicates something that they were going to publish elsewhere.

Anything, that is never submitted (i.e. never even makes it into a submitted draft) and exists solely on your private computer(s) is yours. For a start, it would be hard for Atlas to definitely prove that you wrote it as part of the contract work.

On the other hand, Atlas seem to be content to be nice about letting you re-publish un-used material. It would still be polite/wise to ask first though.

80

Noting again that I am not a lawyer, I simply cannot see how you can construct that out of the contracts we sign.

Atlas has approval on the drafts, but they purchase the Work, and the Work is the final draft we present. Material placed in earlier drafts and removed isn't purchased by Atlas. There is no consideration, so no contract, and there's no clause in the contract which suggest Atlas is purchasing rights to anything other than the Work.

With the exception of material from the -final- draft which they have purchased, Atlas has no right to use material they have not purchased. The consideration they pay is for the Work, and the Work is the final draft.

If its in the final draft and they cut it, they are fine to reuse it, but if I have an earlier draft and use idea X, and Atlas already has idea X on the boil and ask me to cut it, they can't give my version of idea X to the other author. Well, they can because I'd let them, but they don't have the right to all developmental stages in the drafting process. The contract says they are buying the Work and defines the work quite clearly.

My contract with Atlas may be different to yours, but there's no claim of intellectual property from process in my contract.

I'm not sure it is polite to ask Michelle for a copyright clearance every time I post to my blog. It seems like I am putting a huge administrative weight on her, particularly when it seems clear to me that she doesn't own things trimmed from drafts before final.

If she wants me to pull down my blog she can do that at any time anyway, since -everything- all of us do here is clearly derived work from the ArM5 IP. So she can kill it all stone dead any time she likes, and she'd be insane to allow me free reign to make derived works, or to enter into a correspondence with me such that I ask her permission before doing anything on my blog or facebook or whatever. She has a life. She doesn't want to answer my letters twice a week.

The current situation, where the authors recycle stuff on a fannish basis, leaves Atlas with an intact IP, and a group of guys who spread their word through the web. Sure, Michelle -could- stop us, anytime she wanted, just the same way D&D shut down every fan site a few years ago, regardless of what my contract says about the stage of transfer of IP, because its derived work. Instead, the policy seems ot be that we are welcome to use Atlas's images (I did ask about that) and trademarks, provided we aren't making any money or misrepresenting our ties with the company. I fail to see why I should force Michelle to lawyer up by asking for formal permission to dilute her IP.