The hall of heroes

So a magus enters the hall of heros- what is the incentive to call upon them? Generally they can't do anything a magus couldn't do for themselves with the right combination of studying and initiations at hat point. So why use vis calling for someone who can't do anything you couldn't do for yourself?

The simple answer is you venerate them already as the leader of your cult that you helped ascend (see Philosophers of Rome from Mysteries)

They can teach hermetic arts, spells, and whatnot is the main initial use though. Almost by definition they will be quite advanced in at least a couple arts by the time they acheive daimonhood. Hiring a living magus to teach you likely requires a significant favor for them, outside of a few generally tribunal-specific teaching situations (token payment or shard removal in Thebes, Gild Training in the Rhine,the Mentor story flaw, and, perhaps, Tremere house benefits). There is also not the supposed stigma of being taught by them as they have attained “godhood” so of course they are more advanced than you (also not human anymore or magi of the order). If you can do it they would also make fantastic familiars and for that you need to create a relationship with them.


At the very minimum, if they ascended, they are likely to be able to do things you can't, by virtue not just of higher arts plausibly, but also of initiations and mystery virtues a low level cultist hasn't been initiated towards.

"You venerate them" fits for the first generation of magi who ascended them, but I'm thinking after that dies out and before they get the big impressive breaking hermetic boundary effects. I mean you have to invent a spell higher than their might, spend potentially a massive amount of vis calling them, and then negotiate.

Yes, but likely there is a lab text or teaching available from the cult. The cult may have access to ACs to the Daimon. The originators are going to train their followers to venerate that daimon, may also be part of an initiatory script or that daimon may be the one to initiate certain virtues. After that dies out perhaps a magus seeking knowledge stumbles on a lab text to summon them and the location of their ascendance in a book and decides to reinvigorate the cult. Perhaps someone wants knowledge of that time within the Order and books or other ghosts are hard to come by. It would behoove the daimon to tell its followers to spread the spell to summon it, to get more to summon it of course but also as a means of “Here’s a taste. if you want more find and join the cult.”

The spreading the spell part I get, the issue I am coming up against is a "so what" factor. Aside from historical research, you are spending upwards of 8 vis to contact what is essentially simply a high powered magus whose abilities are likely within the realm of what a living specialist can do that you can contact by writing a letter.

And they charge you twice that to spend time inventing the spell then teaching it to you. They just tell you to get lost. They refuse to share their secrets with you. Etc. summoning the daimons and (perceiving oneself as) “having power over them” is its own reward for some.

EDIT: you specifically know this daimon was a Hermetic Theurgist so will very likely be able to teach spells to summon other daimons, that sort of restricted knowledge is very important and unlikely to be taught except at a very high price by living magi, if you even can find one who is able and willing to teach those.

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Lasa Vegoia (TMRE p.138), in theory, can teach every theurgic spell.
And if you are in a rush, she can instead cast them for you!
(what's not 100% clear to me, is if she requires vis to do so - from the way it's written, it would appear the answer is no, but that's vastly unbalancing)

Seems pretty useless to have her cast it for you. Her penetration will be absolute trash on high level pact spells, also, does the aspect then negotiate with her? Does she automatically have a True Name for every daimon? If so, that seems like the real reason you summon her, “Teach me the True Names of x, y, z…” This leads me to suspect the author was thinking more of the Invoke the Spirit of (Spell)/(Form) options.

And once you make contact with a daimon they can refuse to teach you, or require more vis, etc. Summoning a daimon does not give you power over it.

Note the use of both quotes and the parenthetical “perceiving oneself to have” in my post which you are responding to.

True, however most Daimon will perform specific services when you summon them, because they want to be summoned again. A Daimon that refuses to help is a Daimon that is left alone by cultist, and therefore stagnates. In that way, I understand the power list of the Daimons to not be their real power list, but things they typically are willing to use when summoned without much of a negotiation.