The Hermetic Oath - Astrological Impact and let's discuss the time statements

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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During my work on the Chronology project (see that thread), it came to my attention that the day Hermetic Oath as written (and through the editions) is now a little weird as it references an erroneous year in a "wrong" Age of Aries and potentially we may want another day of that year too (?).

“This oath I hereby swear on the third day of Pisces, in the nine hundred and fiftieth year of Aries. Woe to they who try to tempt me to break this oath, and woe to me if I succumb to the temptation.”

Age of Aries (AA) was used as calendar by the Order in earlier editions, but it wasn't matching historical use (Age of Aries is 2000BC to 0, it's now Age of Pisces). In Arm5e it's only really in the Hermetic Oath and on 4 tribunal rulings in Guardians of the Forest. In Mythic Locations it's referenced, but correctly to real world.

Also the year given doesn't seem to align with the previous editions Age of Aries logic and the year 767 anyway and looks to be about 43 years off (correct me if I missed something).

I have searched but I haven't been able to find any reference to the original oath being sworn in february on the third day of Pisces either besides the Oath itself (happy if somebody actually finds this somewhere).
If we want to change the Oath to make more sense, but keep an astrological age for flavor it'll be Pisces + Pisces which can kinda work but is a little meh..

Also, 3rd day of Pisces might not make the best sense, since that's in february. Tribunals for example tend to be in summer as it's more comfortable travel etc (not that it hinders magicians too much but anyway). In my mind, they would have done this in Durenmar, and certainly at an auspiciously opportune day (perhaps summer solstice? Day 30 of Gemini, medieval Julian calendar reckoning, or at an astrologically auspicious day).

For fun I played around a bit with astrology to find some alternative auspicious dates for 767:

The Summer Solstice – A Day of Power and Renewal

On this day, the 30th day of Gemini, as the Sun stands at the gateway of the heavens, fortune and wisdom may be claimed by those who dare.
Tuesday, June 17, 767 AD (Julian Calendar) (Equivalent to June 20-21 Gregorian)

"At the turning of the year, when the Sun reaches its zenith, the world stands at a threshold, and knowledge must be seized before the descent into darkness."

It's an exceedingly powerful day (and good for drama & tension). Why? The longest day of the year symbolizes the height of knowledge and power, but also the beginning of its decline.
The transition from Gemini (air, knowledge) into Cancer (water, emotion) creates a battle between reason and feeling, between scholars and mystics. Ideal for a future schism or inner conflict within the Order over its purpose. I.e. Schism War, or should magic be kept secret, or shared?

  • Last day of Gemini (29° Gemini), a moment of transition and insight. A day for bold declarations, mystical rites, and the foundation of a legendary Order.
  • The Sun reaches its zenith, making this an ideal time for ambitious undertakings, leadership, and public declarations.
  • Scholars and sages, for wisdom burns brightest at the peak of light.
  • Oaths and alliances, for bonds forged under the longest light are blessed.
  • Mars’ day (Tuesday) adds boldness but must be used wisely - great power, but also potential for conflict.

Looking at the history of the Order and the last bullet point here, I'd say this is what they did - and they knew what they did and accepted the risk, perhaps arrogantly. Hahaha :smiley:

Traditionally most auspicious day (but perhaps not for the Order)

On this day, the 5th day of Leo, under the rule of the Sun, the stars align for great fortune and prosperity.
Thursday, July 27, 767 AD (Julian Calendar) (Equivalent to August 5-6 in Gregorian Calendar)

  • The Sun, in its own sign of Leo, grants leadership, power, and success.
  • Jupiter, the great benefic, influences prosperity.
  • The waxing Moon ensures growth and expansion.

The 1st Day of Virgo (August 23, 767 AD – Julian Calendar)

"On this day, as the Virgin takes her seat in the heavens, wisdom and knowledge may be gathered and safeguarded for generations to come."

  • Virgo is ruled by Mercury, the planet of knowledge, magic, and communication.
  • Strengths: A day of order, study, and discipline—the perfect day to codify magical knowledge and create a structured order of scholars.
  • Conflict Factor: Virgo’s meticulous nature may clash with Leo’s lingering fire, bringing tension between pragmatists and visionaries within the Order.

The 9th Day of Sagittarius (December 2, 767 AD – Julian Calendar)

"As the Archer lets loose his arrow, the fire of knowledge flies toward destiny, a day when the wise may set forth on a grand new journey."

  • Sagittarius is ruled by Jupiter, the planet of expansion, philosophy, and learning—ideal for an order of magicians and seekers of wisdom.
  • Strengths: A day blessed for travelers, explorers, and those seeking divine truth.
  • Conflict Factor: This falls in late autumn, a time of waning light, symbolizing the struggle between knowledge and ignorance.

I don't think the Founders would have waited this long in the year - unless they couldn't agree for the whole time

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As for the canon 3rd day of Pisces it is kinda great too and I understand why it might have been the choice. Sharing the full load as it may be interesting for people to use :).

3rd Day of Pisces in AD 767

As the Fishes swim within the celestial waters, the third day of Pisces marks a time of deep reflection, hidden knowledge, and the weaving of fate’s unseen threads.

The 3rd day of Pisces (February 21 or 22, Julian Calendar) falls under the dominion of Jupiter, the great benefic, yet also carries the influence of the mystical Neptune (unknown to medieval astrologers but later associated with Pisces). This day is steeped in the currents of intuition, dreams, and secret wisdom, favoring those who seek truth beyond the material world.

"As the Fishes swim between worlds, the veil is thin, and those who walk between the seen and unseen may claim their birthright."

Why? Pisces is deeply mystical, ruled by Jupiter (higher wisdom) and Neptune (illusion, magic).
Strengths: A day rich in prophetic insight, spirit contact, and deep magical power.
Conflict Factor: Dreams and reality blur, a day of great enlightenment but also potential for illusion and deception within the Order.

What This Day Signifies:

  • A Day of Mysticism & Secrets – The veil between worlds thins, and those who seek prophecy, divination, or hidden knowledge may find answers beyond reason.
  • Fortune in Matters of the Soul – Acts of charity, compassion, and spiritual devotion bear fruit, as Jupiter’s influence magnifies the rewards of kindness.
  • The Tides of Fate Move in Silence – It is an opportune time for whispered alliances, secret negotiations, and long-laid plans to take shape.
  • Beware of Deception – As the waters of Pisces blur the edges of reality, those who deceive, or are deceived, will feel the weight of unseen consequences.

Favored on This Day (sounds like the Order alright):

  • Sages, mystics, and those who walk between worlds
  • Poets, musicians, and visionaries whose art flows like water
  • Seafarers and wanderers, for fortune favors the drifting soul
  • Healers, alchemists, and those who work with hidden forces

Ill-Advised on This Day:

  • Warriors seeking conquest—this is a day of thought, not steel
  • Merchants who seek only material gain—the tides favor wisdom over greed
  • Lies, false promises, and illusions—the stars will turn against the deceiver

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So here's an alternative ending of the oath using summer solstice, but one can keep 3rd of Pisces as well of course.

“This oath I hereby swear on the thirtieth day of Gemini, in the seven hundreth and sixty-seventh year of Pisces. Woe to they who try to tempt me to break this oath, and woe to me if I succumb to the temptation.”

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From the 2e book The Order of Hermes, which is where most of the lore about the Order was first introduced:

This oath I hereby swear on the third day of
Pisces, in the nine hundred and fifth year of Aries. Woe
to they who try to tempt me to break this oath, and woe
to me if I succumb to the temptation.

Bonisagus took the oath on February 21st, A.D. 767,
which is the third day of Pisces in the nine hundred and
sixth year of Aries, according to Hermetic reckoning.
Hermetic astrologers place the Age of Aries as beginning
in 139 B.C. Each new magus states the current date in
place of this one as they take the oath. It is traditional to
use the astrological date, rather than the common one.

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Thanks!
It seems somewhere along the line, the "nine hundred and fifth year" turned into "nine hundred and fiftieth year". That would explain the time error. It was "almost correct" from the beginning.

Looking in my 4e rulebook, it has "fiftieth" too. (And definitive edition as well)

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Actually considering there was no year 0 in the calendar (at least at the time), year 905 in the ars magica Age of Aries would be correct (I've also seen it called AA906 somewhere I'm sure) - but 950 wholly incorrect and has obviously remained with us for a while.

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In the quote I provided, the Oath says "fifth", but the explanation says "sixth".

Elsewhere in the same book, it says that years in the Age of Aries reckoning starts in March, which may or may not matter.

The 3e rule book, and the Houses of Hermes book both uses "nine hundred and fifth year of Aries" when quoting the Oath.
My guess is that it was a simple typo in the 4e rulebook that later got copied into the 5e text.

The B.C. / A.D. numbering of years does indeed not have a year 0. 1 BC is followed by 1 AD, which can easily make for off-by-one errors when counting years.

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Thanks for checking, interesting the typo remained so long... I guess that validates nobody cared about Age of Aries anyway ;).

Perhaps to late for Definite Edition but who knows? @David_Chart ?
Considering it's in the Oath itself it would be nice to have it "fixed" finally.

906 would only be correct if there is a year zero, but if Aries years start in march, the correct year with that logic would be 904 (and would it be Pisces still?)

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The correct length of an age is closer to 2160 years (Ptolemy's figure of the precession of the equinoxes was 1 degree every 72 years; the modern figure works out to a bit less than 2,148 years) than to 2000 years.

As it's not well-agreed when the precession moved out of Aries into Pisces, 2e's 139 B.C. probably is worth keeping.

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Traditionally, the year started on the Spring Equinox, when the Sun entered Aries, the first sign of the Zodiac. When, due to precession, the Equinox no longer fell on the day when the Sun entered Aries, the position of the Zodiac was redefined so that wherever the Sun was on the Spring Equinox WAS the first degree of Aries and the rest of the Zodiac fell out from there. And so the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs diverged. (This sounds wacky, but there were actually good reasons for this in Hellenistic Astrology.)

Anyway, I think it likely that the Order would have founded itself on the first day of Spring / first day of Aries, symbolic of a new beginning.

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Actually I really like that, Aries back in style as it's "on the first day of Aries... " then year of Pisces.
I had to check it out a bit and it's definitely an interesting day astrologically (well you can make any day that with astrology, but anyway...). Probably making this my headcanon now.

The Spring Equinox in AD 767 – A Day to Found the Order of Hermes?

March 20, AD 767

"On this day, when the Sun stands in perfect balance between light and dark, fate itself pauses, ready to be claimed by those who grasp the hidden threads of power."

One of the most powerful days of the year, representing:

  • Cosmic Equilbrium: The moment of perfect equilibrium, ideal for establishing something that must last through time.
  • Aries is the first sign, marking new beginnings, ambition, and the start of a great endeavor.
  • In mystical traditions, the equinox symbolizes the opening of new paths to knowledge and power.
  • Very interestingly, Aries is ruled by Mars, the planet of war and ambition, meaning this day carries both great potential and unavoidable conflict. The Order anyone?
  • Aries is not a passive sign: This would ensure the Order would be ambitious, bold, and driven to seize knowledge rather than wait for it. Well they sure did ;).

The downsides (which in hind sight pretty correct):

  • Aries, ruled by Mars, is associated with war, ego, and rivalry = A Struggle for Leadership
  • Too Much Fire, Not Enough Wisdom: While Aries is a great initiator, it lacks patience; the Order founded on this day favors power and rapid expansion over deep contemplation. Duh...

In summary: Spring Equinox of 767 would be a perfect day to forge an Order of magical pioneers, explorers, and warrior-scholars... Buuuut it would also create a legacy of struggle, internal power struggles, and endless ambition. Oops!

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All of this would still be true if we adjust the day a little bit...

Using Strassbourg as the nearest location to Durenmar to which that I could assign Lat & Long...

  • The Spring Equinox would have been Wednesday, March 18, 6:15 am, just after sunrise.
  • The Sun was at 00 degrees, 41 minutes of Aries - right in the first degree on the Spring Equinox
  • It was the Day and Hour of Mercury - great for founding the Order of Hermes.
  • The Sun was "In Hayz", one of the mst important considerations for astrologers back then - a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart, diurnally placed, in a diurnal sign.. You couldn't ask for better.
  • The strongest planet in the chart by Essential Dignities was Saturn in Gemini - representing "disciplined & logical thought with the ability to organize details" (acc. to my Solar Fire program).

There's more, but astrologers of the day would have considered these the strongest aspects of this chart. So, Spring Equinox of 767, with all OriginalMadman said, plus more.

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Something else to keep in mind is that while sounding imposing astrological calendars were as varied and controversial as mundane calendars at the time, possibly more so as they did not have a central authority to point to. A conventional calendar is likely to be "in the 27th year of king Darius" and at least everyone knows when Darius took the throne. The first Julian calendar counted years based on the assumed establishment of the Roman Empire, but was noted along with the year defined by the current (or historical for past records) consulship for clarity. In the 13th century Europe was mid-transition betweeen the old Roman labeling of years and the current AD/BC method, The Jewish callendar proceded from Annus Mundi (the date of creation), and one of the major issues in reconciliation between the Celtic and Roman churches was the calculation of Easter.
Even today with advanced astronomy and computers astrologers will debate when exactly the age of Aquarius begins or the age of Pices began. I expect things were even more chaotic in the middle ages (even mythic Europe). When is comes to calculation of ages it is a very modern (and minority) contention that the ages are 2000 years long and that Pisces began in 0 AD. Most books I have seen on astrology posit either a 1000 or 1200 year cycle to each age, which would put the time referred to either at the end of the age of Aries by current reckoning or at the very begining of Pisces. In terms of Astronomy there is a 1 degree shift every 72 years in the Vernal Equinox, meaning the average sign if the distribution of the sky were even (which it is not) would be a 30 degree arc, or 2160 year period.
Another point in all of this is that there is, to my knowledge, no evidence that such ages were even referred to in any way during the period. It was the 12th century before any signs of sophistication showed up in Europe regarding astrological systems fallowing the fall of the Roman Empire (remember, this is sophistication, not accuracy or validity) And while such might have returned earlier in the Order, it certainly did not appear as a full blown science at the founding. Even then they were based on Aristotelian physics in which the constellations did not drift over time- without that drift there could be no "Astrological ages" as we currently know them, and anyone refering to an atralogical age at the time was likely doing so for political purposes.

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Yeah. According to Wikipedia: "The method based on the zodiacal constellations has a flaw in that from the reckoning of classical-era astronomer/astrologers like Claudius Ptolemy, many constellations overlap, a problem only eliminated in the past 200 years by the adoption of official constellation boundaries. For example, by 2700 CE the vernal point will have moved into Aquarius, but from a classical-era point of view, the vernal point will also point to Pisces due to the pre-boundary overlap."

So in other words, an margin of error of +/- 1 astrological age would make sense in the middle ages, snd there's nothing wrong with keeping the age of aries. Just assume someone in the OoH or the mercurian cult wrote a book about it, and the date has stuck with the order because of, you know, tradition. We also have books placing creation at 5201 BC so... We're not one incoherence away.

I see it as a date that's stubbornly kept in some circles that wants a calendar that's not based on religion, personally.

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No, it wouldn't make any sense.

It is simple observational fact in 1220 AD that, on the day of the vernal equinox, the Sun is in the middle of Pisces. This is true no matter how much one debates the exact borders between constellations. It is similarly true whether one is trying to use the actual observed-in-sky constellations, or alternatively giving each "sign" an equal thirty degree segment of the sky.

The difference is like the difference between a couple of grogs debating exactly when dawn happened on a heavily-overcast day, and a couple of grogs arguing, at noon, whether or not dawn occurred at all. One question is suited to indefinite and unresolvable quibbling; the other question involves someone being blatantly unreasonable.

There is plenty of flex in choosing when the astrological Age of Pisces started, by a matter of several centuries. But 1220 AD is well beyond the limits of that flex; it is indisputably a year where the Sun is in Pisces at the vernal equinox.

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Possible. To be frank, I don't think I care enough about the subject to figure out whether the age name is calculated in relation to the sun's position or the nighttime sky at a specific hours, let alone figure out whether constellations are overlapping in 1220 on a specific date at a specific time of the day. The reality is one of the things I enjoy about ars magica is that, with the possible exception of geometry required to calculate volumes, most of the time I can ignore science in favor of what makes a good story, and there is some roleplay and story potential about having a date calculated in astrological ages, and leaving the discretion to the storyteller as to when those ages are set to end and what story implications that may have on the metaphysics of the world. A more precise date or age name doesn't improve the story, in my mind. On the other hand - can I refer to a timeline without a reference in astrological age? Sure.

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It may be possible to change the typo. Age of Aries is not changing. This is the Hermetic reckoning. I have absolutely no idea what weird standards they used, but they make it the Age of Aries.

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Hi @David_Chart thanks for checking in. I did also add a suggested correction through the offical form.

I agree it might feel like a tall order to change the rest of the age at this stage. However, I'd still like to argue lightly for it. As mentioned above I did the research, including searching digital files thoroughly, and I'm quite sure it's nowhere else in core rules beyond the Oath, and only pops up in 4 boxes of tribunal rulings in Guardians of the forest without any explanation (that I could find) and Mythic Locations actually uses (the correct) Age of Pisces.

Going back to 4th edition, it's only used for flavor dates in the introduction and in the Oath but not explained (which is why dumped in 5?). It's used in Blood and Sand, Wizard's Grimoire, Medieval bestiary - but only in passing. It's only explained in The Mysteries (completely removed in The Mysteries revised for 5e).
So to me it looks pretty much half-abandoned fairly early.

I'd understand anyone wanting to stick to the Legacy we had since the early days regardless. It's a lot of good nostalgia, but having the correct timings - and even age would for me be even better (and a bit less jarring moving forward, since nowhere in 5e is the Ars Magica version of Age of Aries explained). Age of Pisces, which follows AD years just simplifies everything and remove a completely unexplained reference that won't make sense to anyone without 2e Order of Hermes, 3e books or 4e The Mysteries. We dropped that legacy with 5e anyway, so keeping it makes little sense.

Thanks for listening.

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We dropped the adherence to legacy in 5th d, there is still plenty of Legacy in there- a lot of 5th ed is more of an edited 4th ed than new material. don't feel it is important to correct the date on a calendar that did not exist at the time. The only founder who could have been well versed in Astrology would have been Diedne who would have used a (lost to us) Celtic astrological system which apparently favored lunar houses over sun signs.(Given that the origin point of most forms of astrology was determining the planting season I have no idea how that would have worked.)

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Interesting find!

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In astrological terms, the Zodiac may be divided into three forms:

  1. The Constellational Zodica – based on the actual positions of the constellations on the ecliptic, of differing sizes and often overlapping.
  2. The Sidereal Zodiac – based on dividing these "signs" into twelve, regular signs of 30 degrees each.
  3. The Tropical Zodiac – based on dividing the ecliptic into twelve, regular signs of 30 degrees each, which overlap the Sidereal signs to greater or lesser degrees.

Early astrologers realized that, due to precession, the zodiacal signs in the sky were not fixed, but moved. That is, on the day of the Spring Equinox, the Sun did not rise in the same degree of the same sign every year, but gradually, very slowly, crept “backwards” through the Zodiac. Today, an astrologer continuing to use the Tropical Zodiac would say that the Sun rises in the first degree of Aries on the Spring Equinox (by definition) while an astronomer – or an astrologer using the Sidereal Zodiac – would say that the Spring Equinox Sun is rising in the seventh degree of Pisces or 23 degrees “earlier” in the Zodiac.

It’s a common misconception that early astrologers did not understand this and continued to use the Tropical or “wrong” Zodiac while ignoring the Sidereal or “correct” Zodiac. This is often used in arguments against astrology.

However, early astrologers – after Hipparchus in the 2nd century BCE – were well aware of this shift. (The Mysteries of Mithras may have been based on this esoteric knowledge. See The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries by David Ulansey, Oxford Univ. Press, 1991.) They continued to use the Tropical Zodiac because the twelve-fold division of the ecliptic was what was important, not the constellations. They just kept using the constellation names since so many of their founding texts were written when those constellations and those “signs” lined up and it was an easy system of reference. But in focusing on what were known as “fixed stars”, they used the Sidereal system to identify the actual placement of individual stars in the sky. In other words, they used both Zodiacs at the same time.

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Yep.

Now, if someone wanted to write a supplement about medieval and Hellenistic astrology and how that fits into the Order of 1220, they could do it under the Open License. That might well involve a change in the Age in the Oath date, and if that were embedded in enough cool gaming material, the change might well take root in the community.

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