It came out on www.orcsnest.com yesterday. My copy of the book is currently on it's way to cold Norway. 
E.
Interesting - the blurb
" The Ars Magica Sourcebook of the Normandy Tribunal
In much of Mythic Europe, magi build covenants in remote wildernesses to avoid contact with mundanes. In northern France — the Normandy Tribunal — this is all but impossible. The wildernesses have been tamed and plowed under, the Church plants monasteries in the wastes, noble lords build castles to enforce their rule, and great cities grow up where once was nothing but fen. The magi of the Order of Hermes have adapted to living closely with mundane society in Normandy, even distributing their limited magical resources by way of contests modeled on the chivalric tournaments of the nobility.
But while magic is under pressure in Normandy, it is far from dead. Ancient megaliths stud the landscape, faeries control many forests, and caves and burial mounds hide relics of the past. Demons and monsters imprisoned in ages past by saints and sorcerers stir uneasily in their confinement, and magi wield potent and spectacular magic throughout the land.
The Lion and the Lily provides full details for the Normandy Tribunal, where magi must balance the demands of the nobility, cities, Church, and Tribunal. "
I think that tells you quite a bit actually. See you at the hastiludium!
cj x
Howdy folks. I got my copy on Saturday and I have to say that I am very pleased. As someone who has only really played 5th edition, I can't comment on those things presented that may have changed any material from previous editions.
That being said, I like a lot of the info. There is plenty of stuff in there for high fantasy (IMO, the Confluensis covenant definitely qualifies) as well as low (the Paris stories).
I have to run so I will post more later, but, all in all, a very good book for 5th Ed, especially for those that are not historians or willing to spend lots of time in the ibrary working on thier Area Lore (Mythic France) abilities.
As a teaser, there is some good info on the Schism War but it DOES NOT say who was right or wrong in it. The authors struck that line perfectly.
Best,
-K!
As the blurb says, following the Schism War and mounting tensions between Tytalus and Flambeau (see Societates for details) vis is allocated by a Hermetic Tournament of several events mirroring developments in mundane (knightly) culture. This event is open to visiting teams from other Tribunals as I recall, but I could be wrong! Secondly, the borders of Normandy and Stonehenge (and Provence etc) have shifted over time. This might surprise some people. And finally the whole book has a background the great dynastic struggle between the lion of the Angevins, and the Lily of France. So yes, it will hopefully be very useful to those running a Stonehenge based game - or for various other reasons to do with Hermetic politics a Rhine one, and obviously it has utility for those in the Provence tribunal which it borders. Hope that helps - but it's all based on what is already out there in the blurb, or mentioned n other books already published!
Not sure I'm afraid! I notice there was no pdf of the contents page and intro for this one. 
My own contribution to this book was very minor - I co-wrote on a few chapters, so have a very hazy recollection. Was fun though!
cj x
Cheers on the answers CJ - and Verticus, looking forward to get more spoilers from you now you've got a head start!
Alright - I can't decide whether this'll be an early Christmas or Birthday present, but now I've gone and ordered the Lion and the Lily from London.
Postal Services - fly swift and true!
Aarhus? Humph, I'd have brought you a signed copy over if you'd asked. I'm sure I could have got a train from Esbjerg, and I have not been to Danmark for many years, despite holding a dansk passport! Shame we did not have it at GT - we could have got several of the authors involved to sign - well 3 I think!
cj x
Dont say such things! You made me so befuddled that I accidentally put you on Ignore (and had to figure how to get you off it again)!!
Greater the shame is it that I soo missed that event 
But yes - Aarhus indeed, but since my family is quite spread thin (as butter over to much bread), one brother lives in London and the other in NYC I should have no trouble getting it here for Christmas by personal delivery.. but why on earth wait? My current supplier in London tend to reach me by mail in 3-4 days. But alas, a signature could have been fun 
Hello again!
[color=darkred]Spoilers below so read at your own risk. Also, I'll not call this a review because that implies that I am qualified to judge writing in a technical sense. Nor, as I hinted at in an earlier post, am I terribly interested in how well the book tracks with actual history. I'm counting on David and team to do good research but I'm not going to get too awful frustrated if it deviates some. Finally, I do not have Guardians of the Forest since the saga I play in is set there and the SG has asked that we not get the book until we've played the stories he wants to play. I'll leave it to others to compare between the two.
I'm a fan and happy for any help and what follows is written from that point of view.
OK, now that the disclaimer is out of the way .. WOW!
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First, I think that the authors and editors struck a very good line. There is something for everyone and still leaves a lot of room for customization and change.
The major themes that came across to me, intentional or not, were the fight over magical resources, transitionalist view of the Code, the loss of the Fae (except as presented by the Arthurian cycle of stories), the fact that magi CAN surive and thrive where there is a Dominion aura, the Schism War is no where near forgotten, and magi are in constant state of anxiety with respect to their peers.
First, and perhaps most importantly, is the resource issue. This was really clear and there was a lot of discussion on how the Tribunal handles it. I suppose some might say that the idea of a Hermetic Tourney is a bit contrived but it does fit and there are a number of good suggestions for it. One of the suggestions -- I'll leave it to the reader to find out which ones -- struck me as bit, uh, lighthearted but it was clear the author thought the same so that was OK.
One idea that occured to me is that it would make a truly fantastic introduction to the mechanics of the magic system for beginning players providedthe storyguide has enough experience with the system to provide good guidance. The fact that the set up is such that there is a quick reward in-game is a good motivator and acts as a 'softer' transition from games that are played in the kick-in-the-door-kill-everything-inside-and-steal-their-stuff mode.
The "host's choice" option in the tourney is also a good exercise for the SG responsible for running the game. I mean, how to you invent a magical competition that is meaningful and fun for the players? One solution is to actually play out the discussions during "Troupe Time". An excellent way to expose new players to political role playing.
The division of prizes felt a little arbitrary to me but it has a decent backstory so I'll probably stick with it. It does allow a chance for new players to get a decent award if they are modestly lucky and that meta-game reason tips me in it's favor.
The second theme is the loss of the Fae. The Dominion is, rightly in this case I think, all pervasive. While the authors don't dwell on it, I think that a major saga could be run around the idea of magi trying to rediscover/resurrect lost fae creatures and powers in the area. The tone that the authors have supplied allows players to choose whether this is a Death of Wonder thing or The Secret Mysteries or both and provides just enough info to tease the imagination.
To be sure, there are plenty of fae from the Arthur stories discussed and some discussion on 'missing' giants and I'm not saying that they are entirely absent. But I think that there are a lot of, perhaps minor, stories that are missing. The section on Confluensis touches on this a bit, but is a bigger than just one covenant no matter how wonderous. The fact that some of the fae have adapted somewhat to the growing Dominion influence is spice for the sauce and could force players to reconsider what the Fae really are.
The Dominion. Yep, a big part of this place. There are plenty of examples of how magi have to work around or with this consideration but it is not discussed as much as I would have preferred. Personally, and I know people differ with me on this, regiones are an easy way out and there seem to be a lot of them around. That's fine and it is convienient explanation for effective magical research in the region. I wanted a little more on lacunae (sp?) but that will come in the Realms of Power: Magic book so I'll wait.
The other thing that seems to be missing is motivation. What discussion there was on why magi located in a particular area or town seems a little weak (but only a little). The answer, and in this Tribunal it is a biggie, is that the location is at or near a vis source. The backup reason is that there is a magic or fae aura. And they are good enough as far as they go. But why THIS aura in THIS place as opposed to another? Just be cause it was the nearest or the only one known at the time? Personally, I would have liked to see more but what we got was pretty good.
So, back to the Dominion. One big point that is made at the end of the book is that the Dominion is rising and there is a possible issue of weakening magical prisons. So, for those folks that like the idea of fighting dangerous critters -- and I am one of them -- there is plenty of potential of 'wandering monsters' and one of the few good reasons for them. The one question that has to be answered is why was the critter imprisoned in the first place as opposed to just killing/dispelling/disrupting it instead? There is a story behind every prisoner so the SG should be prepared for the players to investigate why a Might 30 demon was allowed to survive contact with a magus capable of imprisoning it. Just a thought.
Another point that is not discussed very much is how an apprentice can learn Magic in a Dominion Aura. Yes, it doesn't matter where you read, but it does matter where you demonstrate enough talent to be called a magus. If the covenant has a magic aura and the Gauntlet can take the form of 'doing tricks' in it, fine. The book doesn't cover it so I recommend the SGs give some serious thought to it.
From this we can go to the discussion in the book on dealing with mundanes. You really have to do it (at least that is the sense I get reading it) so a little more case law would have been appreciated but what there is sufficient. The book gives some good examples and motivates further thought on the matter. One saga idea on a grand level would be one where experience players play experienced character trying to get the Code changed at the Grand Tribunal. This could start with the Lotharingian (?) Tribunal Saga Seed and then going REALLY big.
One thing that seems to be missing (but I haven't fully digested the book yet) is there doesn't seem to be many cases of where relationships with the mundanes went sour (a la Rhine Gorge). Kind of surprising. There has to be a reason why there are still conservatives vis-a-vis the Code in this Tribunal. "We don't want another Stupidus Covenantus situation! I vote no, no, NO!!!"
Then there is how the Schism War topic is handled. I love what was covered in the book and REALLY like what they left out. Would I have liked a section of broader selection of "rumors" or "stories told by old magi" about it? Sure. But the fact that dates and locations are fairly definite and motivations and actions were pretty loose was exactly the right way to do it. Moreover, showing that the Tribunal still carries wounds from it and it's aftermath was very much the right thing. The selction of story seeds revolving around that was very good and will provide players with more than they can reasonably play. I'm greedy for more, but what there was was great.
Finally, the issue of relations between the individual magi and covnenants and how raiding makes everyone nervous about thier neighbor. If you have ~60 magi and there is MAYBE two or three hundred pawns of vis harvested every year, folks are going to be very protective and VERY sneaky. A lot of stories will revolve around protecting resources from 'colleagues' and players should be prepared to spend a fair amount of time on that alone. The idea of finding a new vis source is a little underplayed, in my opinion, but it is discussed. A new vis source in THIS covenant should be a major event and engender all sorts of political byplay and dirty dealings. Greed is a major source of corruption, as we all know, and the Infernal should be playing pretty fiercely to that end here.
So, on the whole, there are a lot of things that could have been explained a little more, but that is probably my lack of experience speaking. I really liked what I saw. There are some things that I'll change to suit my tastes and appearent disconnects will have to be filled in. That is true for any ArM book. The thing I love about the game as a system is how tolerant of modification it is and how much is open for interpretation some aspects of the game are. Lots of room for making it My Game.
And this book continues the tradition. A very hearty "well done" to all involved. I look forward to Art and Academe!
-K!
Verticus, great job! Thank you for making the effort of a long review! I'll certainly be prey to hovering about my postbox for the coming days now...
I'll especially look forward to read more on the relations to England/Stonehenge, the transitionalists and the parts on the Schism War.
Excelent 
Thank you very much for this review
Not that I recall.
Yes, as I recall.
The Tribunal has been vis poor for a very long time: arguably since the beginning of the Tribunal. That being said, what little there is to have, the big covenants have traditionally had more than their share of. We don't mean the entire Tribunal is in Winter. Far from it. The Hermetic Order is a more tenacious weed than you might imagine. Some of the covenants are big and bold and powerful, even by the standards of other Tribunals. Many of the younger ones, however, aren't.
There are links, but they are mostly mundanes doing things that magi are interested in. Oh, and Dragon's Rest, the Mercere House on the north coast, has a pretty regular run to its opposite number across in Stonehenge.
Seriously, thought, given the placement of some of biggest shakers in the Tribunal, covenants on the south coast of Britain just can't afford to ignore Normandy.
Fabulous. Got the book a few days ago -express from London- but havent read it yet. But it'll prove quite interesting. Especially since at the moment we only have one covenant on the south coast, but it's quite dead middle in an important plot arc.
Recently the magi explored the ruins of a covenant called Lumen (actually Calebais, mixed with some links to the Schism War) on those shores. Now, amidst a lot of sideplots and political intrigue, a Guernici Archmage straight from Magvillus, has arrived to the Stongehenge tribunal proclaiming the new covenant of Lumen Renate... He is a hard core traditionalist with an yet to be seen agenda....
It seems the Lion and the Lily might give me some further inspiration as well as add more flavour to Mythic Europe as seen so far in this saga.
Well its been out well over a week now, and apart from sparking a discussion on the Berklist about raiding mundane goods from rival covenants (which is explained more fully in L&L) and a brief discussion of the naming of Tribunals and borders thereof there has been now real controversy. I am VERY surprised by that - but maybe people jsut did not notice some fo the more er, "radical" ideas yet?
cj x
Compare this thread to the Berklist thread and see why some of the newer authors just don't bother with the Berklist anymore. I'd leave it myself if not for the sentimental reason that it was the first mailing list I ever joined, but that is looking like a more and more pointless rationale.
I'm persoanlly amazed by the number of people in the current whine who are perfectly happy to whine about a book they say they have not read.
Indeed, some obvious contributors proudly state that they intend to never read the thing they are discussing because its a Tribunal book.
At about that point, it seems pretty obvious to me that that particular community has become toxic.
(At one level, that's good to hear. I find the format of mailing lists too fractured to follow, with different sub-threads responding to different posters, all mixed up in a time line - bleh!
So long as much of the discussions are mirrored here in some way, that works for me.)
Well, I haven't read it... yet. I do have it sitting waiting for me and I have flicked through but I just haven't had time to do the book justice.
I have picked up the liege and vassal covenant concept but I haven't found (or looked for) the sections that describe how it works. But as out current saga is set in Rye and that area had strong links with Normandy I expect to be using at least some of the content fairly soon.